Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
magic in Judaisim
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Boeregeneraal on April 29, 2008, 09:30:52 PM ---Jews practice magic ?! :o
--- End quote ---
Amongst Kabbalists, there is a belief that "good magic" is possible,
It`s not really magic.. Some examples,
An evil decree is declared on a town, and a a very righteous chassidic rabbi prays very hard for 20 hours, and a decree is overturned.. His chassidim ask him what happened. He says as he prayed his soul went up and he argued in the heavenly court that the judgement be overturned.. And it was overturned.
Or, a rabbi through his prayer and knowledge of the spiritual realms, managed to figure out why peoples` prayers were not being answered..
There was many chassidic stories like that. There is a book "Not just stories" by rabbi twersky, that mentions some. Just stories, and as rabbi twersky says, it is foolish to believe they are all made up, and foolish to believe every detail.
There is a story about the Baba sali(a great kabbalist), which I heard from a guy whose father and grandfather were in iraq at the time.. And he heard it from them. A muslim was beating a jew, he shouted out, the baba sali came out mumbled something, and the muslim was hospitalised.
There`s the story of the golem of prague, and now there is even a model of the golem in prague, no doubt for tourism.. But to mark the legend..
But the arizal said.. That for some mystical reason (like , we no longer have the ashes of the red heifer), we are not pure, and we are not allowed to do "practical kabbalah".. this working in the spiritual realms to fix things in the physical world. So nobody even tries to do it.. You do here stories of prayer , and rabbis knowing things they could not possibly have known.. without divine inspriation.. Rabbis receiving ruach hakodesh. For example, stories involving the chazon ish, or the lubavitcher rebbe, where people have told thme they are seeing a doctor over a tumour, and the rabbi told them there was nothing wrong and not to bother. Or the rabbi told them what doctor to see.
Ruach HaKodesh, is described by the ramchal, in one of his books.. His works are philosophical and very popular, he claims he received teaching from an angel..
We must remember, as, I think Hillel said, we are a nation of prophets and apprentice prophets.
According to rabbi aryeh kaplan - "handbook of jewish thought", we had "schools" where people trained so as to be receptive of prophecy.. And even the RAMBAM describes the different levels of prophecy - 11 levels - , in "the guide". Ruach hakodesh is just below the prophecy of the prophets in the bible book of prophets. According to the rambam, in the guide, it is the level that (all?) things in ketuvuim were written..
Once you believe in G-d and miracles and angels, You are inherently believing in a mystical realm.. so it is difficult to say there is no magic - if you use a wide definition of magic.
q_q_:
Danbennoah is effectively a Troll
don`t feed the troll... Don`t let him litter this thread with his garbage.
We have all argued with that idiot danbennoah already.
Don`t do so here since it is at the expense of contributing to this thread.
Lubab:
Okay q_q.
With regards to the thread.
If someone is very familiar with the inner working of science he can do things that would appear to laymen to be "magic" when in truth they just come from a really good understanding of reality and how it can be manipulated. Since kabbalists are masters of the stages G-d used to create the world they are (as a side effect) truly great scientists as well that could manipulate reality in ways that the secular sceintists haven't yet been able to figure out how to do (but are quickly advancing to be able to do in the near future...). Throughout history good and evil people have had this sort of advanced knowledge. .
But most of what people call magic is "achizat anyaim" which means "catching of the eye" i.e. slight of hand to make you think you experienced something that you really didn't.
takebackourtemple:
I think that most of the things that magic claims to be able to do can be done, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Something like teleportation which is virtually impossible in our environment has been demonstrated at a molecular level. The odds of a person teleporting? Virtually impossible. As small as it is, there is a mathematical probability for a human being being able to teleport or walk through walls or perform all sorts of impossible things.
One thing that I will note is that the universe is very complex, and there are many forces that we just cannot comprehend. To call them magic is one of two things, deception or the failure to understand what is really going on.
In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake and turned back into a real staff when he picked it back up. I don't know the explanation, but believe that it is possible that hashem rearranged the molecular particles to perform the transformations.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: takebackourtemple on April 30, 2008, 07:20:50 PM ---<snip>In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake <snip>
--- End quote ---
sure, I don`t think anybody claims the miracles were slight of hands. The disagreement, between RAMBAM and others, is over any other magic, such as the magic of the egyptians.
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