Please sticky until Chaim sees: My response to the poll policy

[DownwithIslam]

I saw  a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]

I witnessed a small manifestion of NKs in Montreal in the summer of 2006.

I couldn't believe how WRONG these individuals were against their people.

It was a very sad spectacle. I'll never forget.

I rememeber when that fat pig Ariel Sharon came to speak at Baruch College in manhattan before the disengagement. I knew a guy who went to the protest outside that was being held against the disengagement. He took pictures of the satmars. Their was a particularly huge Satmar turnout there and they were holding signs such as "Israel is a cancer" and others. The guy told e that these beasts said they live in Williamsburg so you know what that means.

[Rubystars]

I like CF and Down with Islam. I wish nobody would fight with anyone else if we're all on the same side.

We arent fighting at all. If this was a fight, I would stop posting in this thread for the sake of the movt. I am continuing to post because we are merely having a discussion about Satmar. I think that is perfectly legitimate. I do understand your concern though.

Well for my part I really have always respected the Jewish people and Israel and I want them to survive and to have a strong homeland. I grew up believing that the Jewish people had a right to Israel. I am here mostly because I'd like to help Israel to be secure.

Of course, saving the USA and other civilized nations is also important to me and I think JTF would help that too.

I find it hard to care about helping someone who talks to Gentiles as if we're lesser somehow. We're all human beings and I believe God loves me too. One reason I respect Chaim so much is that he's respectful and kind to both Jews and Gentiles even as he has a wonderful loyalty to his own people and has sacrificed so much for them.

I try to stay out of conversations about Jewish groups vs. Jewish groups because I don't think I should be telling other people how to follow their religion. I've gotten really annoyed by non-Christians telling me that I wasn't a good Christian, so I wouldn't want to do that to any other religion. Sometimes, though, like C.F., I can make a pretty good guess as to who's doing better things! I usually don't talk about it though unless it's really blatant like someone praising the Palescumians outright.

[Gruzinit]

I saw  a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]

Forget about Maris Ayin, these beasts openly say they want Israel dismantled. You know what that means. How could these satmar kikes even make an attempt to appear normal when their hate book "Vayoel Mashe" written by The Satmar "Rabbi" openly calls for Israel destruction. Defending Satmar is like defending Izlam.

I've often heard N.K. jerk-off Dovid Weiss claim that during the diaspora, Jews lived in relative peace and harmony with their Arab neighbors. This guy is obviously clueless, Jews were forced to accept the humiliating and segregated status of dhimmi's in Islamic countires. They were forced to to ride donkeys instead of horses or mules, wear ankle boots rather than sandals, mustaches rather than beards, and various other identifiers (including unmatched-colored shoes in Yemen, and yellow patches in 13th century Iran).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Out of respect for Chaim, I won't flame away at Satmars anymore, but I think it would be a good idea if Chaim produced a video explaining theologically how they are a cult of Judaism.

[Rubystars]

Technically Christianity would be considered a false cult much further removed according to Judaism, right or wrong? If he made a video about them, wouldn't they ask why he works with Christians?

[Lisa]

Technically Christianity would be considered a false cult much further removed according to Judaism, right or wrong? If he made a video about them, wouldn't they ask why he works with Christians?

I wouldn't call it that.  While there are similarities, the two religions separated long ago. 

In terms of Satmars and others asking why Chaim works with Christians, I'm sure there are already people asking these questions.  But so what?  JTF accepts all good people. 

[Rubystars]

That's a good answer, Lisa!

[q_q_]

To DWI - Anybody that condemns Satmar as a group, are ignorant idiots..  Rabbi Kahane was not against the Satmar. He respected the fact that they took a Torah position. Rabbi Kahane was against Neturei Karta.
For standing with the arabs - who want the jewish people destroyed.

Tzvi often says stupid things.  But he is not ignorant on this.  And when it comes to judaism, then even with his stupidities, he is far more sensible than you in discussion. Because he is not an ignoramous in judaism, he is a jew that is passionate in learning about judaism. You are not jewish, so you certainly don't follow judaism, and are commenting on things way out of your depth.  And you really provoked him and others by constantly posting against the Satmar even though things were explained to you again and again and again.

I think it was you DWI (or somebody you agree with?) that was even stupid enough to post that the satmar rebbe was not a proper rabbi, and that he agreed with Arafat.  When I pushed on that to quote from him, book/website, page, words, e.t.c. you failed to deliver. And then when posts got lost, you started your rant again.  Very intellectually dishonest and provocative.

Chaim has opened our eyes to a new fact.. That SOME Satmar are like neturei karta, wanting israel destroyed. Supporting the arabs.   And he said how he encountered them.  This fact was not stated/known before..

Nevertheless..  This does not change the fact, that, as Chaim said. Not all Satmar are like this.

And certainly, the Satmar Rebbe was not pro the arabs destroying israel militarily.  Or standing with our enemies..  

Fortunately, I missed when this escalated to CF doing some sexually perverse poll about satmar ..

Look at Chaim's post. He is not against all satmar.
Neither was Rabbi Kahane.

I would expect disproportionate reactions when provoking people.. this is a kahanist forum!!

[Lisa]

We have to do what we have to do.  And worrying about what others are, or might be saying is pointless.  (Although sometimes, that's easier said than done.)

[q_q_]

I saw  a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]

Forget about Maris Ayin, these beasts openly say they want Israel dismantled. You know what that means. How could these satmar kikes even make an attempt to appear normal when their hate book "Vayoel Mashe" written by The Satmar "Rabbi" openly calls for Israel destruction. Defending Satmar is like defending Izlam.

I've often heard N.K. jerk-off Dovid Weiss claim that during the diaspora, Jews lived in relative peace and harmony with their Arab neighbors. This guy is obviously clueless, Jews were forced to accept the humiliating and segregated status of dhimmi's in Islamic countires. They were forced to to ride donkeys instead of horses or mules, wear ankle boots rather than sandals, mustaches rather than beards, and various other identifiers (including unmatched-colored shoes in Yemen, and yellow patches in 13th century Iran).

Well.. the neturei karta couldn't care less about being treated like donkeys.. They think of that as a good thing. The arabs need them, they won't kill them.    They don't want "dignity" They don't value those things. They just want to be able to keep the Torah, that's it.

Their view is that Jewish weakness is fine/good(maybe a kiddush hashem!), and jewish strength is a desecration of G-d's name..

It's the opposite of Kahanism.  Kahanism says jewish weakness is a chillul hashem, jewish strength a kiddush hashem - see youtube, rabbi kahane speaking to bnei noach, giving a bible lesson, ezekiel ch26 or 36.

[Lisa]

Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish.  He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious.  And he speaks Yiddish fluently. 

[q_q_]

in a very open discussion I Had with a NK type.. He said to me

"we were their donkeys"  And he said it to express how we got along fine with them. And we were safe.

They are aware of being downtrodden.. but for them that's fine.

Of course, they'd rather live in america!  Notice that!

[DownwithIslam]

To DWI - Anybody that condemns Satmar as a group, are ignorant idiots..  Rabbi Kahane was not against the Satmar. He respected the fact that they took a Torah position. Rabbi Kahane was against Neturei Karta.
For standing with the arabs - who want the jewish people destroyed.

Tzvi often says stupid things.  But he is not ignorant on this.  And when it comes to judaism, then even with his stupidities, he is far more sensible than you in discussion. Because he is not an ignoramous in judaism, he is a jew that is passionate in learning about judaism. You are not jewish, so you certainly don't follow judaism, and are commenting on things way out of your depth.  And you really provoked him and others by constantly posting against the Satmar even though things were explained to you again and again and again.

I think it was you DWI (or somebody you agree with?) that was even stupid enough to post that the satmar rebbe was not a proper rabbi, and that he agreed with Arafat.  When I pushed on that to quote from him, book/website, page, words, e.t.c. you failed to deliver. And then when posts got lost, you started your rant again.  Very intellectually dishonest and provocative.

Chaim has opened our eyes to a new fact.. That SOME Satmar are like neturei karta, wanting israel destroyed. Supporting the arabs.   And he said how he encountered them.  This fact was not stated/known before..

Nevertheless..  This does not change the fact, that, as Chaim said. Not all Satmar are like this.

And certainly, the Satmar Rebbe was not pro the arabs destroying israel militarily.  Or standing with our enemies.. 

Fortunately, I missed when this escalated to CF doing some sexually perverse poll about satmar ..

Look at Chaim's post. He is not against all satmar.
Neither was Rabbi Kahane.

I would expect disproportionate reactions when provoking people.. this is a kahanist forum!!

Firstly it was not me who had the argument about the satmar rabbi with you. From reading your post, I am pretty sure though that I would agree with the person attacking Satmar. I can tell you to read Vayoel Moshe and their you will see what the Satmar "Rabbi" thought about Israel. He wanted it destroyed immediately. Also, I suggest you read Chaims post in the thread CF started a couple of days ago. Chaim clearly explained what type of individual Yoel Teitelbaum was, a man who sold out all his followers to save himself. I really think most people here understand what Satmar is about now. The Satmar Rabbis sefer clearly wishes for Israel destruction so its sort of like saying their are peaceful muzzies. It is impossible cause their religion dictates otherwise. If the satmar rabbi wantd israel destroyed then we know the positions of his loyal followers. Also for the sake of accuracy, I am jewish. Also qq, check this out, it might help. http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228760#msg228760

[q_q_]

Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish.  He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious.  And he speaks Yiddish fluently. 

Well that just makes it 10* worse!!

He should know better.

It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge.  So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know.  He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).

But the fact is..  Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that.  I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.

[DownwithIslam]

Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish.  He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious.  And he speaks Yiddish fluently. 

Well that just makes it 10* worse!!

He should know better.

It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge.  So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know.  He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).

But the fact is..  Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that.  I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.

Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe  sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments

   1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
   2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
   3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
   4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
   5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
   6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.


In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt

[DownwithIslam]

Please refute what I have posted above in a respectful, factual manner so we can have a normal discussion without the emotion.

[Archie]

Well.. the neturei karta couldn't care less about being treated like donkeys..

You are right. From the only NK protest I've seen, a lot of people were laughing at them.

The NKs were totally unfazed.

They just want to be able to keep the Torah, that's it.

Keep Torah? Allow me to be skeptical here...

Is  stirring up the crowds against your People and your Homeland is keeping Torah?

It can't be...

[DownwithIslam]

You are right archie. If you see my above post, I linked to proof of the satmar rabbis accusations that Israel is to blame for the holcaust and is responsible for all bloodshed in the middle east. I want to see someone argue with me on the facts. I am waiting for QQ's response.

[DownwithIslam]

Oh well, I guess people can distinguish for themselves who brought the facts. The satmar defenders clearly dont have much factual information to defend themselves with. I am still waiting for QQ to directly address the points I made in reply 39.

[q_q_]

Well.. the neturei karta couldn't care less about being treated like donkeys..

You are right. From the only NK protest I've seen, a lot of people were laughing at them.

The NKs were totally unfazed.

They just want to be able to keep the Torah, that's it.

Keep Torah? Allow me to be skeptical here...

Is  stirring up the crowds against your People and your Homeland is keeping Torah?

It can't be...

They think they're keeping Torah..  Obviously breaking shabbat to do an anti-israel protest(they think it is pikuach nefesh - saving life!!), is  breaking the torah. But they want to keep it and think they are!
That's my point..

And my point was that they don't mind being treated like donkeys, and why they don't mind it.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The issue is not only Satmer, bottom line is that some people were/are continually trashing any Rabbi/ Religious group who does not necessarily hold by the Kahanist way of learning the Torah (actualy its not even calling it the Kahanist way, because the Kahanist way can be found in his Religious Books, which are the opposite of what was stated and how it was approached. Its what they think is Kahanist). Can their be serious Halahic discussions on what is the right way to solve problems facing Jews, yess. BUT by their being statements by some demeaning Rabbinic figures and groups, writing disqusting sexual things agains't them and their followers, and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashe-m, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

[q_q_]

Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish.  He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious.  And he speaks Yiddish fluently. 

Well that just makes it 10* worse!!

He should know better.

It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge.  So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know.  He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).

But the fact is..  Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that.  I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.

Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe  sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments

   1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
   2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
   3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
   4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
   5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
   6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.


In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt

You were saying he was like Arafat. And he was not a real Rabbi.

[DownwithIslam]

Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish.  He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious.  And he speaks Yiddish fluently. 

Well that just makes it 10* worse!!

He should know better.

It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge.  So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know.  He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).

But the fact is..  Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that.  I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.

Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe  sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments

   1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
   2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
   3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
   4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
   5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
   6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.


In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt

You were saying he was like Arafat. And he was not a real Rabbi.

Ok now I am getting pissed at you because you are outright lying and that I wont stand for. Ok now for you to have any crdibility in light of the fact that you cannot address my above post, please give everyone here the direct link to where I said he was like arafat. I am waiting. I should add that now that you keep on quoting me falsely that I said he was like arafat, it got me thinking and I can name numerous similarities between yassir arafat and yoel teitelbaums ideologies. Also, their is certainly grounds to say that he was not a real rabbi becuase a real rabbi would not endanger lives of the millions of jews living in israel and yoel did so that is a debate in and of itself. But staying on track, I can assure you that you wont be able to produce the thread where I said that yoel teitelbaum is like arafat because I never said it.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established. And for the record in many ways he and other Rabbinic figures were right in the facts of the spiritual destruction that the state has made, BUT that does not mean that now we join NK, and support killing Jews. The opposite the right way would be to work within the state and to get ridd of its leaders.
 These are issues that are deep, and its often taken at face value, where you have the ignorant making a mocery out of everything they hear, because it does not fitt into their frame of mind, and their mentality of how things should be.  
 Also even if taking something good, for example keeping the Land of Israel in Jewish hands, it could become something bad with people Idolizing that and automaticaly cursing, making fun of, etc. of anyone who might think other wise, and when somethings are more important than that. It is a perversion of a mitzva.

[Archie]

and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

That a very nice public apology Tzvi.