Please sticky until Chaim sees: My response to the poll policy

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish.  He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious.  And he speaks Yiddish fluently. 

Well that just makes it 10* worse!!

He should know better.

It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge.  So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know.  He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).

But the fact is..  Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that.  I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.

Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe  sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments

   1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
   2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
   3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
   4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
   5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
   6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.


In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt

You were saying he was like Arafat. And he was not a real Rabbi.

Ok now I am getting pissed at you because you are outright lying and that I wont stand for. Ok now for you to have any crdibility in light of the fact that you cannot address my above post, please give everyone here the direct link to where I said he was like arafat. I am waiting. I should add that now that you keep on quoting me falsely that I said he was like arafat, it got me thinking and I can name numerous similarities between yassir arafat and yoel teitelbaums ideologies. Also, their is certainly grounds to say that he was not a real rabbi becuase a real rabbi would not endanger lives of the millions of jews living in israel and yoel did so that is a debate in and of itself. But staying on track, I can assure you that you wont be able to produce the thread where I said that yoel teitelbaum is like arafat because I never said it.

 you just did  

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

That a very nice public apology Tzvi.

  I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.

[DownwithIslam]

By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established. And for the record in many ways he and other Rabbinic figures were right in the facts of the spiritual destruction that the state has made, BUT that does not mean that now we join NK, and support killing Jews. The opposite the right way would be to work within the state and to get ridd of its leaders.
 These are issues that are deep, and its often taken at face value, where you have the ignorant making a mocery out of everything they hear, because it does not fitt into their frame of mind, and their mentality of how things should be. 
 Also even if taking something good, for example keeping the Land of Israel in Jewish hands, it could become something bad with people Idolizing that and automaticaly cursing, making fun of, etc. of anyone who might think other wise, and when somethings are more important than that. It is a perversion of a mitzva.

Tzvi, you are wrong once again. I will not allow fabrications so I will quickly point out that vayoel moshe was written in 1958, post holocaust and after the creation of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe
In it Yoel Teitelbaum writes
Other arguments

   1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
   2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
   3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
   4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
   5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
   6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.


He blamed Israel for the holocaust and blamed it for all bloodshed in the middle east. That means he supported the muslims and said that the israeli jews were the ones killing arabs. Dont you see how you are making no sense in defending this rabbi? Please refute what I just said. And I am still waiting for QQ to come up with that link. After accusing me of something, I would hope he could back it up.


Tzvi, please do more research before you emit inaccuracies. I guess if Rabbi Mizrachi doesnt say it, you dont know it.

[DownwithIslam]

At least what he said about Herzl was true.

I agree with that yackov but unfortunately, that might of been the only true statement in that whole book. Now lets allow tzvi and QQ to refute what I wrote. Tzvi was already proven wrong in saying that the satmar said all this before the creation of Israel when in fact vayoel moshe was written betweek 1958 and 1961. Oh well

[DownwithIslam]

and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

That a very nice public apology Tzvi.

  I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.

You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Wikipedia? Who is that written by? Satmer people do not go on the Internet. It was probably written by secular Israeli, they always try to discredite Religious and "Haredi" Jews. You would have to learn things directly from the Sefarim, and bring up the things in context. I am not soo familiar with their writings, but it would take a lot more then something written from wikipedia, or you to discredite a whole group of Religious Jews. + the fact that a lot of the same spinn used agains't them was used on almost all Rabbinic figures in the last 100 years, by those who consciously or subconsciously go agains't the "Ultra-Orthodox" just because they (the Ultra...") do not accept the leaders and the way the state is. Or the fact that they keep mitzvot pisses off and shows how much losers those who go agains't Hashe-m are.

[DownwithIslam]

Wikipedia? Who is that written by? Satmer people do not go on the Internet. It was probably written by secular Israeli, they always try to discredite Religious and "Haredi" Jews. You would have to learn things directly from the Sefarim, and bring up the things in context. I am not soo familiar with their writings, but it would take a lot more then something written from wikipedia, or you to discredite a whole group of Religious Jews. + the fact that a lot of the same spinn used agains't them was used on almost all Rabbinic figures in the last 100 years, by those who consciously or subconsciously go agains't the "Ultra-Orthodox" just because they (the Ultra...") do not accept the leaders and the way the state is. Or the fact that they keep mitzvot pisses off and shows how much losers those who go agains't Hashem are.

Dont play that game. I can tell you from reading the sefer in yiddish that the wikipedia article is in fact written by someone who is sympathetic towards satmar. The rabbi did in fact say
Other arguments

   1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
   2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
   3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
   4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
   5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
   6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.

all after the creation of the state of israel. I think people can judge for themselves now.

[Archie]

and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

That a very nice public apology Tzvi.

  I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.

You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.

Man up Tzvi.

Chaim did ask you to apologize to DWI and CF.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
 Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).

[q_q_]

DWI, the thrust of my argument against you, was that - as I said,

Somebody(and I asked if it was you or somebody you agree with), said that the satmar rebbe was like arafat, and that he was not a real rabbi..  And I challenged him to back that up.

Those posts were lost..

I am willing to accept that it wasn't you. You clearly are not making those arguments yourself here. So there really isn't disagreement..

I see you made a post saying it wasn't you.. Which I saw. But since it is such a long thread.. And you then posted a big response, quoting my question to you about arafat, and not denying it.  And it's late.. So I forgot about and didn't see that little post in the mass of posts, where you said you deny it.

No point making a long post defending some position.. A position that was not what I accused you of.

And BTW.. the first post where I mentioned it, it was not as an accusation, but as a question.

Anyhow, I see you didn't claim the satmar rebbe was not a rabbi, or that he was like arafat. So what's the argument?

I would even say that the flag burning - though I know the reasoning - I would say it is not derived from the torah.. Not a Torah position. But their idea that there should be no state, is a Torah position - a mistaken one probably, but a Torah position.

[DownwithIslam]

and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

That a very nice public apology Tzvi.

  I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.

You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.

Man up Tzvi.

Chaim did ask you to apologize to DWI and CF.

Archie he wont as he claims to be expressing "holy boldness."
Check out these two links archie.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228715#msg228715
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228658#msg228658
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228715#msg228715 (look for the mexican friend line)

The only reason I am persuing this even though we should be concentrating on other things is because what tzvi is trying to shove down our thorats here is exactly the type of retoric that is spewed on a daily basis on the splinters. I am trying to prevent that type of language towards righteous people on this forum. Their is no place for it here. It is clear that tzvi has absolutely no proof or logical reason in his support for satmar. I think archie and others can see that he cannot refute anything I said. He still hasnt explained how the rabbi could blame israel for the bloodshed in the middle east in the year 1961.

[DownwithIslam]

How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
 Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).

You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.




And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.

[q_q_]

By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established.

no, the satmar position, is very strongly, no state, no co-operation with it..

the agudas yisroel position is  , well now we have one we can't do anything about it!  But that's not satmar.

Regarding the holocaust, that DWI mentioned.. and the satmar position on it.
And agudas yisroel types share many beliefs with satmar.. I have even heard an anti-zionist non satmar, say something very sick.. So some might want to skip past the end of this paragraph.  He said that Zionism was jewish national socialism, and so as a punishment, G-d responded measure for measure, with (German) national socialism.

Quite opposite to a Kahanist view, which would be that the jews suffered the holocaust, because they did not go to israel.  I read on the forum.. somebody said to kahane "Are you saying it was a punishment". Rabbi Kahane said "was it a blessing?"


 

[DownwithIslam]

By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established.

no, the satmar position, is very strongly, no state, no co-operation with it..

the agudas yisroel position is  , well now we have one we can't do anything about it!  But that's not satmar.

Regarding the holocaust, that DWI mentioned.. and the satmar position on it.
And agudas yisroel types share many beliefs with satmar.. I have even heard an anti-zionist non satmar, say something very sick.. So some might want to skip past the end of this paragraph.  He said that Zionism was jewish national socialism, and so as a punishment, G-d responded measure for measure, with (German) national socialism.

Quite opposite to a Kahanist view, which would be that the jews suffered the holocaust, because they did not go to israel.  I read on the forum.. somebody said to kahane "Are you saying it was a punishment". Rabbi Kahane said "was it a blessing?"


 

I agree with you on this. Tzvi is making the same style defense of satmar that muzzies make for the koran. When you read something, of course it should be read literally. Some things are quite clear as is the satmar rabbis hatred for israel as evidenced by his disgusting sefer.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
 Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).

You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.




And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.

 This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
 And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn  

[DownwithIslam]

How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
 Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).

You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.




And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.

 This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
 And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn 

So I see, you are allowed to slander lubavitch but I cant wisper a criticsm about ovadia yosef and satmar? Are you serious. And as far as lakewood is concerned, I are you aware that rabbi aharon kotler publicly stated that lubavitchers are  not jewish and when the lubavitcher rebbes father came to america, rabbi kotler bought his followers to "greet" him with a viscous public protest in which they belittled a man who was tortured for not massering on fellow jews. The irony is that kotler hated satmar too but that is for another discussion. Did you know that kotler was a fervent hater of Israel but he was against public support for the arabs which seperated him from the others. He didnt actively fight israel like satmar but he publicly stated his hatred for the state.

[q_q_]

And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.

Thank you

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
 Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).

You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.




And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.

 This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
 And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn 

So I see, you are allowed to slander lubavitch but I cant wisper a criticsm about ovadia yosef and satmar? Are you serious. And as far as lakewood is concerned, I are you aware that rabbi aharon kotler publicly stated that lubavitchers are  not jewish and when the lubavitcher rebbes father came to america, rabbi kotler bought his followers to "greet" him with a viscous public protest in which they belittled a man who was tortured for not massering on fellow jews. The irony is that kotler hated satmar too but that is for another discussion. Did you know that kotler was a fervent hater of Israel but he was against public support for the arabs which seperated him from the others. He didnt actively fight israel like satmar but he publicly stated his hatred for the state.

 See what I mean. The Gedolim have their fights, and they say things in their own way. The Great Rav Nachman from Breslev says that the simple Jews should stay away from the arguments between the Gedolim (and those who defile the brit- Brit Tefillin, Shabb-t even more soo), and they would not be able to understand.  
  Just because someone said things agains't Israel does not mean anything. I would probably beat that almost all Rabbis (that count) said things agains't Israel, but one has to know why they said it and for what purpose. For example those who were very religious had to hear from Rabbis agains't the secular entity, in order to be warned agaisn't getting too close to "their brethren", even though at the same time it is a Mitzva to get Jews religious and help them out, it is also bad a lot of times for the community to get too close to other communities and get its children to adapt the alien values of others. If this was not done, then their wouldn't be a Jewish nation today. Because the Jews would embrace everyone and every idea, (even though it has happened to a large degree).

[q_q_]

Chaim did ask you [Tzvi] to apologize to DWI and CF.

Give Chaim some credit.. I just checked what he said.. He advised Tzvi, urged Tzvi to apologise.. For his(Tzvi's) sake..

You make it sound like Chaim ordered him.. And then you told Tzvi to Man Up and apologise!! As if following an order from another man is manning up!!  Chaim didn't tell him or ask him.. He didn't say it like that at all!!

[DownwithIslam]

How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
 Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).

You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.




And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.

 This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
 And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn 

So I see, you are allowed to slander lubavitch but I cant wisper a criticsm about ovadia yosef and satmar? Are you serious. And as far as lakewood is concerned, I are you aware that rabbi aharon kotler publicly stated that lubavitchers are  not jewish and when the lubavitcher rebbes father came to america, rabbi kotler bought his followers to "greet" him with a viscous public protest in which they belittled a man who was tortured for not massering on fellow jews. The irony is that kotler hated satmar too but that is for another discussion. Did you know that kotler was a fervent hater of Israel but he was against public support for the arabs which seperated him from the others. He didnt actively fight israel like satmar but he publicly stated his hatred for the state.

 See what I mean. The Gedolim have their fights, and they say things in their own way. The Great Rav Nachman from Breslev says that the simple Jews should stay away from the arguments between the Gedolim (and those who defile the brit- Brit Tefillin, Shabbat even more soo), and they would not be able to understand. 
  Just because someone said things agains't Israel does not mean anything. I would probably beat that almost all Rabbis (that count) said things agains't Israel, but one has to know why they said it and for what purpose. For example those who were very religious had to hear from Rabbis agains't the secular entity, in order to be warned agaisn't getting too close to "their brethren", even though at the same time it is a Mitzva to get Jews religious and help them out, it is also bad a lot of times for the community to get too close to other communities and get its children to adapt the alien values of others. If this was not done, then their wouldn't be a Jewish nation today. Because
 the Jews would embrace everyone and every idea, (even though it has happened to a large degree).

Now tzvi, can you explain to everyone how the hell your last post had anything to do with anything we have been discussing. Did it explain the sick behavior of the satmars or did it explain why you attacked chabad or did it explain why kotler attacked chabad or did it explain why kotler hated israel or did it explain why you said that the satmar rabbi only made his attacks pre 1948 when in fact they were not made until 1958. I didnt think so.

[DownwithIslam]

and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
 

That a very nice public apology Tzvi.

  I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.

You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.

Man up Tzvi.

Chaim did ask you to apologize to DWI and CF.

Archie, thank you so much for your support in fighting for the truth. It means a lot to me.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Tzvi, Chaim closed this subject once and for all. Since you do not agree with him, why do you stick around here? If you would stick to forums populated with fellow cultists like Revava and "Kahane".org, you would not see regular, average Jews and be so offended. Chaim has challenged you and your friend Dominater time and time again to prove your claims that the majority of rabbis agree with you, and you have never delivered. Get over it--the majority of JTFers detest cults.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

And this is one time that I want one of my threads to be locked. It's time to end this [censored] match now.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, Chaim closed this subject once and for all. Since you do not agree with him, why do you stick around here? If you would stick to forums populated with fellow cultists like Revava and "Kahane".org, you would not see regular, average Jews and be so offended. Chaim has challenged you and your friend Dominater time and time again to prove your claims that the majority of rabbis agree with you, and you have never delivered. Get over it--the majority of JTFers detest cults.

Of course Chaimfan had put what I was thinking in such eloquent words. Tzvi has been unable to refute with facts anything I have written in this thread. His support of the satmar cult is frightening and defies logic. His positions are closer to islam than to judaism or kahanism. The scariest part is that he is never able to admit defeat.

[ItalianZionist]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?