What do you guys think about Kabbala?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

http://www.truekabbalah.org/kabbalah/introduction_kabbalah.htm

 This article says what Kabbalah is and the different levels in Kabbalah. To say that a Jew should not study Kabbalah is wrong and comes a lot from ignorance or hearing half true statements about Kabbalah. The truth is that real Kabbalah is very much part of Judaism and a Jew should not turn away from learning some of it at least. In many lectures Rabbis many times incorporate teachings from Kabbalah as they do soo from Midrash, halacha, Gemmarah etc.
 And to DanbenNoah and any other gentile- if it is not part of your religion then stay out of it (I know you are going to say you believe in Judaism, but are a noahide, but still the Torah is not yours to be discussing in that you agree or disagree and even more soo to make arguments. That would also probably go for completly secular/ignorant Jews who dont read and follow the Torah).

Not every Jew can grasp kabbalah...it is meant for the Torah and Talmudic scholar..and with a man who is married with kids...Am I saying anything wrong?

 Yes. You can definitly grasp some of it. About married with children that is the higher parts of Kabbalah (did you read the short article I posted?) Anway go on that site and see just a few lines on the different essays and see if you can understand it or not.

Tzvi, there is different law for Ashkenazim and Sefaradim.  I'm pretty sure Dan is an Ashkenazi Jew, as I am, and the laws regarding kabbalah are clear for us.   You are into it, that's great, but if it's not right for us, you should not be pushing it on us just because it is very good and Sefaradim study it freely and most love it, etc...   We have our obligations.  One is to become an expert in Torah before delving into kabbalah, and as far as I know, an Ashkenazi man must be 40 with wife and children.

 drDan is Persian, anyway I know many Askenazim who study Kabbalah including big Rabbis. I was just listining to this Russian Rabbi (white Russian) who spoke about this and also asked why do people who do not study Kabbalah say not to study it when they dont understand anything about it. Also what about the Askenazim who are Hassidim? they all study Kabbalah, just open up any book by a Rebbe (for example Likutei Moharan by Rabbi Nachman ZTL Mi Breslev.)

I'm saying that I don't pursue kabbalah because it is too magnificent to understand and grasp...It's not for everyone. It's too deep too powerful...i choose to stay away from something like that because it might lead me to misunderstand what a certain message is saying. 

 How do you know? if you didn't read or listin to anything from it.

[q_q_]

http://www.truekabbalah.org/kabbalah/introduction_kabbalah.htm

 This article says what Kabbalah is and the different levels in Kabbalah. To say that a Jew should not study Kabbalah is wrong and comes a lot from ignorance or hearing half true statements about Kabbalah. The truth is that real Kabbalah is very much part of Judaism and a Jew should not turn away from learning some of it at least. In many lectures Rabbis many times incorporate teachings from Kabbalah as they do soo from Midrash, halacha, Gemmarah etc.
 And to DanbenNoah and any other gentile- if it is not part of your religion then stay out of it (I know you are going to say you believe in Judaism, but are a noahide, but still the Torah is not yours to be discussing in that you agree or disagree and even more soo to make arguments. That would also probably go for completly secular/ignorant Jews who dont read and follow the Torah).

Not every Jew can grasp kabbalah...it is meant for the Torah and Talmudic scholar..and with a man who is married with kids...Am I saying anything wrong?

 Yes. You can definitly grasp some of it. About married with children that is the higher parts of Kabbalah (did you read the short article I posted?) Anway go on that site and see just a few lines on the different essays and see if you can understand it or not.

Tzvi, there is different law for Ashkenazim and Sefaradim.  I'm pretty sure Dan is an Ashkenazi Jew, as I am, and the laws regarding kabbalah are clear for us.   You are into it, that's great, but if it's not right for us, you should not be pushing it on us just because it is very good and Sefaradim study it freely and most love it, etc...   We have our obligations.  One is to become an expert in Torah before delving into kabbalah, and as far as I know, an Ashkenazi man must be 40 with wife and children.

 drDan is Persian, anyway I know many Askenazim who study Kabbalah including big Rabbis. I was just listining to this Russian Rabbi (white Russian) who spoke about this and also asked why do people who do not study Kabbalah say not to study it when they dont understand anything about it. Also what about the Askenazim who are Hassidim? they all study Kabbalah, just open up any book by a Rebbe (for example Likutei Moharan by Rabbi Nachman ZTL Mi Breslev.)

chassidim are an exception amongst ashkenazim.

 What about many of the Russian Rabbis I heard who mention the Zohar and parts of the Kabbalah. Also Rabbi Wallerstein mentions lessons from Kabbalah (he is 100% Askenaz , I think Meir Yeshiva Orthodox). Also Rabbi Kahane and his son Rabbi B Kahane mention lessons from Zohar (but a little in comparison)

they would have their individual reasons.. I doubt rabbi wallerstein of torahanytime, or rabbi kahane  really teach a study of it..

Just topics that touch on something there. Like rabbi kahane might have found an idea in the zohar to support his position.  Or rabbi wallerstein or another kiruv rabbi would give some self help jazzy lecture that draws on some lesson from kabbalah.

For ashkenazim, the rule is being at least 40 years old, and learned in talmud before studying it.
So ashkenazim really need a good reason to justify teaching it!
I have heard the reason that the lubavitcher rebbe gave to justify the lubavitch openness about teaching kabbalah.. and mystical text like the Tanya.  

note- arizal was before chassidus. Before the baal shem tov. But it wouldn't suprise me if chassidim consider the arizal to be a chassid!

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/17/07.htm
"
Indeed, we see that as the generations progress, the revelations of Chassidus have become greater. The Zohar states that in the 600th year of the 6th millennium, the gates of wisdom will be opened." Yet, we find that the revelation of the esoteric began even earlier: The times of the Arizal, which from then "it became a mitzvah to reveal this wisdom" -- the years 5331-2; a still greater revelation -- when the Baal Shem Tov was revealed in 5494; greater still -- the revelation of Chabad Chassidus by the Alter Rebbe in 5540.
"

Certainly at the time of the RAMBAN, the kabbalah was more hidden than today.. and it was believed it should have been so.   It seems to be that with time, more comes out.

searching for kabbalah ramban in google books..
I found this..
the ramban "in his commentary.. he usually closes his kabbalistic comments with vehamaskil yavin - those who know kabbalah will understand"

there is another bunch of info here.. at this mesora link..
But a word of warning regarding this site.
The author is anti chabad..  He doesn't object to the kabbalah of the RAMBAN though, and he is probably ok with the kabbalah of the arizal.
He has some interesting quotes .
This article came out after tamar yonah had a kabbalist rabbi (rabbi bar tzaddok) on her show.. I didn't hear the show but I ran into this article. Has some good quotes (rabbi bar tzaddok is the rabbi that had the badly sourced article trying to claim that the rambam was a kabbalist , and he also had the lecture saying that rabbi kahane was against violence!)

So another rabbi responded on his own website. Here is the quote though that I wanted to show you regarding the 40 years old thing..

http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes173.pdf
 Vilna Gaon (Gra)
The Gra (ibid 18) cites the Gemara in Chagiga 13a as the source for this restriction.  The Shach (ibid. 6) writes that the “Mekubbalim and later Rabbis (Acharonim) strongly prohibited learning Kabbala until one is a great Torah scholar, with a thorough knowledge of ‘all’ Talmudic  tractates (“Shas”). Some even maintain that one must be at least 40 years old. One must also be filled with Kedusha, Tahara, Zerizut, Nekiyut, literally, “sanctity, purity, zeal and cleanliness.” Most people who involve themselves in Kabbala prematurely suffer great Divine Retribution.”


The gra is of course a leading Gaon, famous ashkenazi rabbi.   I think the chazon ish said of him that he could revise all of shas in 3 weeks.  He would sit with a torah scroll and could go through the whole torah with it - the whole oral tradition, since everything is hinted at there.   He was also a kabbalist, though not so open like the baal shem tov, and he was famously anti chassidic (but anti them at a time when chassidic rebbes were using kabbalistic reasons to miss prayer times and the like, and chassidim were doing acrobatics in synagogue, like cartwheels and headstands, being over joyful.  Times have changed, and now  chassidim are very very strict and keep halacha better than most jews!).  I think he was anti chassidim generally not just lubavitch

[Dr. Dan]

http://www.truekabbalah.org/kabbalah/introduction_kabbalah.htm

 This article says what Kabbalah is and the different levels in Kabbalah. To say that a Jew should not study Kabbalah is wrong and comes a lot from ignorance or hearing half true statements about Kabbalah. The truth is that real Kabbalah is very much part of Judaism and a Jew should not turn away from learning some of it at least. In many lectures Rabbis many times incorporate teachings from Kabbalah as they do soo from Midrash, halacha, Gemmarah etc.
 And to DanbenNoah and any other gentile- if it is not part of your religion then stay out of it (I know you are going to say you believe in Judaism, but are a noahide, but still the Torah is not yours to be discussing in that you agree or disagree and even more soo to make arguments. That would also probably go for completly secular/ignorant Jews who dont read and follow the Torah).

Not every Jew can grasp kabbalah...it is meant for the Torah and Talmudic scholar..and with a man who is married with kids...Am I saying anything wrong?

 Yes. You can definitly grasp some of it. About married with children that is the higher parts of Kabbalah (did you read the short article I posted?) Anway go on that site and see just a few lines on the different essays and see if you can understand it or not.

Tzvi, there is different law for Ashkenazim and Sefaradim.  I'm pretty sure Dan is an Ashkenazi Jew, as I am, and the laws regarding kabbalah are clear for us.   You are into it, that's great, but if it's not right for us, you should not be pushing it on us just because it is very good and Sefaradim study it freely and most love it, etc...   We have our obligations.  One is to become an expert in Torah before delving into kabbalah, and as far as I know, an Ashkenazi man must be 40 with wife and children.

 drDan is Persian, anyway I know many Askenazim who study Kabbalah including big Rabbis. I was just listining to this Russian Rabbi (white Russian) who spoke about this and also asked why do people who do not study Kabbalah say not to study it when they dont understand anything about it. Also what about the Askenazim who are Hassidim? they all study Kabbalah, just open up any book by a Rebbe (for example Likutei Moharan by Rabbi Nachman ZTL Mi Breslev.)

I'm saying that I don't pursue kabbalah because it is too magnificent to understand and grasp...It's not for everyone. It's too deep too powerful...i choose to stay away from something like that because it might lead me to misunderstand what a certain message is saying. 

 How do you know? if you didn't read or listin to anything from it.

I have..it's too deep..too much for me to handle..I would rather get commentary about Torah and Talmud first...

[q_q_]

According to the RAMBAN, you are certainly supposed to stay away from it if it is too deep..

And not think about it rationally.. Not reasoning about what it says. It's mystical.

That PDF I linked to said
"
The Ramban, the great Talmudic, Halachic and Kabbalistic authority (see Faith and Folly by Rav Yaakov Hillel Shlita p.37) of the mediaeval era ends his introduction to Sefer Bereshith (Shilo Publishing, translation by Rabbi Chavel p.15) with the following warning:

“Now behold I bring into a faithful covenant and give proper counsel to all who look into this book, not to reason or entertain any thought concerning any of the mystic hints which I write regarding the hidden matters of the Torah, for I do hereby firmly make known to him (the reader) that my words will not be
comprehended nor known at all by any reasoning or contemplation, excepting from the mouth of a wise Kabbalist speaking into the ear of an understanding recipient. Reasoning about them is foolishness; any unrelated thought
brings much damage and withholds the benefit.
“Let him not trust in vanity, deceiving himself”,
(Job, 15:31)
for these thoughts will bring him nothing but evil as if they spoke falsely against
God, which can not be forgiven...Rather let such see in our commentaries novel
interpretations of the plain meanings of Scripture and Midrashim, and let them take moral instruction from the mouths of our holy Rabbis: “Into that which is beyond you, do not seek; into that which is more powerful than you, do not inquire; about that which is concealed from you, do not desire to know;
about that which is hidden from you, do not ask. Contemplate that which is permitted to you, and engage not yourself in hidden things.”
(Bereishith Rabbah, 8:2)

"

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tzvi, there is different law for Ashkenazim and Sefaradim.  I'm pretty sure Dan is an Ashkenazi Jew, as I am, and the laws regarding kabbalah are clear for us.   You are into it, that's great, but if it's not right for us, you should not be pushing it on us just because it is very good and Sefaradim study it freely and most love it, etc...   We have our obligations.  One is to become an expert in Torah before delving into kabbalah, and as far as I know, an Ashkenazi man must be 40 with wife and children.

 drDan is Persian, anyway I know many Askenazim who study Kabbalah including big Rabbis. I was just listining to this Russian Rabbi (white Russian) who spoke about this and also asked why do people who do not study Kabbalah say not to study it when they dont understand anything about it. Also what about the Askenazim who are Hassidim? they all study Kabbalah, just open up any book by a Rebbe (for example Likutei Moharan by Rabbi Nachman ZTL Mi Breslev.)

Tzvi, I NEVER SAID that Ashkenazim cannot or should not study kabbalah!!!!!   Did you read what I wrote before you responded??  You are refuting a position I never took!!   Of course plenty of Ashkenazim learn kabbalah.  Ramban and Vilna Gaon were foremost kabbalists!  (Vilna Gaon had his differences with the chassidic movement, but not with kabbalah per se).   As I said previously, it is accepted in the mainstream (across the board, ashkenaz or sephard or what have you) of religious thought as being a component of Orthodox Jewish tradition.   

I did not know Dr. Dan was not Askenazi, so I stand corrected.   But regardless of that.  For Ashkenazim there are RESTRICTIONS on study of kabbalah.  Those are some of what I've said already.  And there is good reason for it.  Kabbalah is very powerful and can be very dangerous as well as very uplifting.  There are many historical examples of this, shabtai tzvi etc misuse of kabbala led to disaster.  It must be rooted in Torah and Mitzvot.   Dr Dan I won't give advice to, but it's certainly not a bad idea for him to be cautious and want to focus first on Chumash and commentaries and gemara before getting deeply into kabbalah.  Every Jew should familiarize himself with the basics and get a solid grounding in chumash and some talmud.   That said, of course any time you run across a rabbi's shiur or a weekly parsha commentary there will be elements of kabbalah woven into it.  And this is not a problem.  It's not straight up deep-kabbalah study divorced from all else, there's a difference.  And that's not bad either, it just has to be in the right context.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Of course plenty of Ashkenazim learn kabbalah.  Ramban and Vilna Gaon were foremost kabbalists!  (Vilna Gaon had his differences with the chassidic movement, but not with kabbalah per se).   As I said previously, it is accepted in the mainstream (across the board, ashkenaz or sephard or what have you) of religious thought as being a component of Orthodox Jewish tradition.   

<snip>
For Ashkenazim there are RESTRICTIONS on study of kabbalah.  Those are some of what I've said already.  And there is good reason for it.  Kabbalah is very powerful and can be very dangerous as well as very uplifting.  There are many historical examples of this, shabtai tzvi etc misuse of kabbala led to disaster.  It must be rooted in Torah and Mitzvot.   <snip>

The RAMBAN was sephardi

Personally, I think it's just obvious that for a proper understanding, you do chumash or tenach first,  then mishna, then gemara.     And when doing chumash or tenach, you read the pshat first, then look at midrash. I'm sure most of us haven't done that. I know I haven't, and so I am not going to be looking much into kabbalah

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

<snip>
Of course plenty of Ashkenazim learn kabbalah.  Ramban and Vilna Gaon were foremost kabbalists!  (Vilna Gaon had his differences with the chassidic movement, but not with kabbalah per se).   As I said previously, it is accepted in the mainstream (across the board, ashkenaz or sephard or what have you) of religious thought as being a component of Orthodox Jewish tradition.   

<snip>
For Ashkenazim there are RESTRICTIONS on study of kabbalah.  Those are some of what I've said already.  And there is good reason for it.  Kabbalah is very powerful and can be very dangerous as well as very uplifting.  There are many historical examples of this, shabtai tzvi etc misuse of kabbala led to disaster.  It must be rooted in Torah and Mitzvot.   <snip>

The RAMBAN was Sefaradi

He was from Spain.  Duh, I should have known that.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Of course plenty of Ashkenazim learn kabbalah.  Ramban and Vilna Gaon were foremost kabbalists!  (Vilna Gaon had his differences with the chassidic movement, but not with kabbalah per se).   As I said previously, it is accepted in the mainstream (across the board, ashkenaz or sephard or what have you) of religious thought as being a component of Orthodox Jewish tradition.   

<snip>
For Ashkenazim there are RESTRICTIONS on study of kabbalah.  Those are some of what I've said already.  And there is good reason for it.  Kabbalah is very powerful and can be very dangerous as well as very uplifting.  There are many historical examples of this, shabtai tzvi etc misuse of kabbala led to disaster.  It must be rooted in Torah and Mitzvot.   <snip>

The RAMBAN was Sefaradi

He was from Spain.  Duh, I should have known that.

yes.. RAMBAM and RAMBAN lived in very different situations though,

RAMBAM, amongst muslims in spain

RAMBAN , amongst christians in spain

both fled!

The muslim/christian distinction was probably the source of the confusion...
people associate ashkenazim with living with christians, and sephardim with living with muslims

note - earlier a misspelling, i meant sephardi/sefardi..I wrote sefaradi!