Christian Idol Worship

[Shamgar]

Now please, I am not trying to recruit or proselytise to anyone. I have a full time job just keeping myself and my children righteous; So please don't ban me I love this forum way too much.

But, in regards to the idol worship comments, I think many Christians view God as a Triune God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One God with three personas. Jesus was not a unique detached individual/being but a manifestation of God.

An analogy that helps me explain would be computers. God is the operating system. Very complex and powerful and completely beyond the comprehension of 99.9% of us. Jesus is the desktop. Our main interface, puts things in perspective and helps us understand what the operating system can do and teach us.
I guess that would make the Holy Ghost like a wireless network, it can reach out everywhere.

I am certainly no scholar so forgive my inelegant attempt to explain my belief.

[Ulli]

I am glad, that you brought this issue up.

We have to clarify, that we have here two religions.

Judaism and Christianity.

The vast majority of Jewish theologians believe, that Christianity is idol worship. Because among other passages in the "New Testament" of the clear statement of the Gospel according to John. Because of this it is for practizing Christians in their oppinion in fact impossible to enter the world to come.

The vast majority of Christian theologians believe, that it is for Jews in fact impossible to enter the world to come, because in their oppinion is nobody able to keep the laws given at mount Sinai. So they have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to get salvation.

There is no possibility to "melt" this two Religions together. The theological systems are totally different.


We have to accept this fact and we have to respect the others, like they are.  We should not try to convince each other in this points. Every discussion will escalate and hurt us in the end.

In this way we can work together.

[q_q_]

Now please, I am not trying to recruit or proselytise to anyone. I have a full time job just keeping myself and my children righteous; So please don't ban me I love this forum way too much.

But, in regards to the idol worship comments, I think many Christians view G-d as a Triune G-d. G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Spirit. One G-d with three personas. Jesus was not a unique detached individual/being but a manifestation of G-d.

An analogy that helps me explain would be computers. G-d is the operating system. Very complex and powerful and completely beyond the comprehension of 99.9% of us. Jesus is the desktop. Our main interface, puts things in perspective and helps us understand what the operating system can do and teach us.
I guess that would make the Holy Ghost like a wireless network, it can reach out everywhere.

I am certainly no scholar so forgive my inelegant attempt to explain my belief.

Your post to elaborate on christian theology.

And bash christians here by calling them idol worshippers.

It is not JTF policy. We work together here.

Certainly, we each have disagreements, but we are not here at JTF to argue theology with each other. We are here to work together for a common cause.

Your post calling christians idol worshippers is inappropriate.
And bad for the movement.

[Shamgar]

Now please, I am not trying to recruit or proselytise to anyone. I have a full time job just keeping myself and my children righteous; So please don't ban me I love this forum way too much.

But, in regards to the idol worship comments, I think many Christians view G-d as a Triune G-d. G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Spirit. One G-d with three personas. Jesus was not a unique detached individual/being but a manifestation of G-d.

An analogy that helps me explain would be computers. G-d is the operating system. Very complex and powerful and completely beyond the comprehension of 99.9% of us. Jesus is the desktop. Our main interface, puts things in perspective and helps us understand what the operating system can do and teach us.
I guess that would make the Holy Ghost like a wireless network, it can reach out everywhere.

I am certainly no scholar so forgive my inelegant attempt to explain my belief.

Your post to elaborate on christian theology.

And bash christians here by calling them idol worshippers.

It is not JTF policy. We work together here.

Certainly, we each have disagreements, but we are not here at JTF to argue theology with each other. We are here to work together for a common cause.

Your post calling christians idol worshippers is inappropriate.
And bad for the movement.

I don't understand your response??? I am a Christian and these are my own beliefs. I am not bashing anyone, Jew or Christian.

[Dr. Dan]

I am glad, that you brought this issue up.

We have to clarify, that we have here two religions.

Judaism and Christianity.

The vast majority of Jewish theologians believe, that Christianity is idol worship. Because among other passages in the "New Testament" of the clear statement of the Gospel according to John. Because of this it is for practizing Christians in their oppinion in fact impossible to enter the world to come.

The vast majority of Christian theologians believe, that it is for Jews in fact impossible to enter the world to come, because in their oppinion is nobody able to keep the laws given at mount Sinai. So they have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to get salvation.

There is no possibility to "melt" this two Religions together. The theological systems are totally different.


We have to accept this fact and we have to respect the others, like they are.  We should not try to convince each other in this points. Every discussion will escalate and hurt us in the end.

In this way we can work together.

THe best that can happen is that, especially scholars from both groups, if they wish to have an understanding with each other..and honest respectful discussions.

[q_q_]

shamgar, sorry for jumping to that conclusion

But your subject/title is very misleading , it suggests that christians are idol worshippers.

This is not what you wanted to suggest.

I suggest editting it.

[Zelhar]

I think that the trinity belief in Christianity is not considered idol worshiping just for itself. It is a violation of the concept of a single unique God in Judaism (it is not pure monotheism according to Judaism). I think the what might be seen as idol worshiping is praying to portraits and statues of Jesus, marry and the saints.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I think that the trinity belief in Christianity is not considered idol worshiping just for itself.

 Depends on who you ask. If you ask one who believes in it they would say no it is not, if you ask someone who doesn't follow that religion they would say otherwise.

[Lisa]

q_q, Shamgar was trying to defend his religion against being labeled idolatrous by another member in a thread I locked a little while ago.  Take another look at his post.  

So to sum things up, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to how montheism is defined.  Again, we need to focus on areas where we're in agreement, rather than what we disagree on.  

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Strictly for the record, the true definition of the Trinity is that a single, undivided G-d, with one nature, has three eternal and uncreated aspects or persons that are always manifested simultaneously. The best and most accurate analogy for the Trinity is that of the human mind. All at once, a person possesses rational (pragmatic), emotional (feelings or passion-driven), and philosophical (intellectual) faculties. Nobody would say that we are all schizophrenic because we possess all three sides at once.

The divine Trinity is far more united and indivisible than that, though, because the three Persons in it never have any disagreements or conflicts in purpose (unlike the tensions and divisions that are constantly in our own minds).

I fully respect/accept, of course, that most forum members will never believe in the Trinity, but I just felt that it was germane, and an opportune time, to explain just exactly what it is for the public record.

Chaimfan

[Shamgar]

Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship God.

[Rubystars]

I apologize, I should not have brought this topic up. I am not offended by people who think Christians are idol worshippers, but I know some people are. The priority should, however, be to work together despite any theological differences. Jews and Christians (and others) are friends here, working together for common goals.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

How can Jews and Christians defend one another if they do not understand one another?  I find the Christian viewpoint interesting even if it's incompatible with my beliefs.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

JTFers have to act like family. Because we are family.

 Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.

[Lisa]

Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.

I think he meant it in the sense that we're all human beings with similar hopes, fears, goals, etc. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.

I think he meant it in the sense that we're all human beings with similar hopes, fears, goals, etc. 

 It still is a false impression. This is actualy something talked about in this weeks parsha. 

[Zelhar]

Incompatibility of faith shouldn't be a detriment to non-religious cooperation. I am against attempts to create artificial unification of religions. There are many such attempts that are supposed to bring together the Abrahamic religions, including Islam.

I have no problem to cooperate with Buddhists who might be idol worshipers but are pacifists. There is no way I can reach understanding with Islam even if they have a more similar concept of God.

[Rubystars]

There is no possibility to "melt" this two Religions together. The theological systems are totally different.


We have to accept this fact and we have to respect the others, like they are.  We should not try to convince each other in this points. Every discussion will escalate and hurt us in the end.

In this way we can work together.

True Pheasant, we have to respect other people's religious choices and work together regardless of differences.

[Shamgar]

Allies! I like that.

[2honest]

Trinity is really something that is not easy to understand, even Christians have a hard time I guess.

Someone once said it is like a point in the three dimensional space. It has got three dimensions but still is one single point.

[Ulli]

I think the main problem in this discussion is that most Christians and Jews here talk at cross-purposes.

To put it in a nutshell:

We have to agree on the fact that we are different.

Perhaps we can cover the distance with a "floor" for a short time.

But this floor will disrupt over the theological differences.

So Tzvi is right on the brother issue. Allies on common goals is the right expression.

We have to face "theological reality" and not what our wishes may be.

So we can work in respect of each other together.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship G-d.

I'm not a Catholic either, but I don't think these comments were necessary.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.

Sorry Tanach disagrees with you, dude. The whole purpose of Judaism is to be a light and example to all of the nations.

Not that it matters. It's not like I regard your opinions any more highly than Barack Hussein Obama's anyway.

[MasterWolf1]

Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship G-d.

I'm not a Catholic either, but I don't think these comments were necessary.

C.F. You are right this is not necessary and Shamgar you can't also tell Catholics how they should worship their faith.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Incompatibility of faith shouldn't be a detriment to non-religious cooperation. I am against attempts to create artificial unification of religions. There are many such attempts that are supposed to bring together the Abrahamic religions, including Islam.

I have no problem to cooperate with Buddhists who might be idol worshipers but are pacifists. There is no way I can reach understanding with Islam even if they have a more similar concept of G-d.

I know that I am getting very nitpicky and technical, but I do not think Buddhists actually worship their icons. Buddhism is not a polytheism. Depending on the variety (Therevada, Mahayana, or Zen), Buddhism is either somewhat pantheistic, monotheistic, or even atheistic.

As a Christian, I do not think Buddhism is a true religion (I would call it very lovely human philosophy, but nothing more), but let's not mischaracterize them either.