Author Topic: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11  (Read 59017 times)

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Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #175 on: July 17, 2008, 01:18:43 AM »

[/quote]

There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars.  This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary.  Because it turned out to be a dead-end.


[/quote]

Not entirely true.
PBS did report on the gold underneath the building and its disappearance. This is from their "mainstream" website:
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html

Also, the issue is not mentioned in loose change but it is brought up in Alex Jones' 9-11 truth movies.
Also, some kids confronted Guilani about the issue once and he got pretty pissed and wouldn't say anything about it...why not just calmly explain that it's a complete lie.


"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #176 on: July 17, 2008, 01:22:35 AM »
Even if we are to accept that fire could have caused both these buildings to collapse. Then we are still left with two alternatives. Explosives were responsible. Or demolition was responsible and we'd then need to examine which of these possibilities are more LIKELY. Is it LIKELY that fire caused this kind of collapse or would it be at least a somewhat unusual occurance. If it would be an unusual occurace for fire to do this but very likely for a demolition to cause this result than logic would compel us to accept the demolition theory as being a more likely cause. 

Muck said earlier the detonation theory was very unlikely because when would they set it up?
However, there was just such an opportunity to set it up a few weeks before 9-11. Security blocked everyone out and wouldn't let anyone in the building for hours and hours for "security checks"...and they could well have done it then.

Have you guys discussed the tufts of smoke which appear to be shooting out of the building at points well below the alleged pancaking?


« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 01:26:02 AM by Lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #177 on: July 17, 2008, 01:28:10 AM »
and of course naturally since you're all talking with a certifiable nut-case... that makes you extremely intelligent and perfectly sane... correct...? as gore vidal that stinker once said... (truth wherever it comes from must be accepted)... "naturally the u.s. is the only nation in the history of the world that has never ever had a conspiracy within its governmental ranks... and the lone-nut theory each and every time is exactly what transpired... of course..."  (which in the case of 9/11 is the first multiple lone nut case in u.s.history... of arab-islamo-fascist nuts... 19 of them)... lincoln of course had 11 nuts hung for killing him... but booth goes down as a lone nut... and then much later on... 100 yrs. later by jfk, rfk and mlk... there weren't any 11 collaborators in any of those slayings... give me a break... listen i've got beachfront property in arizona i'd like to sell you guys... real cheap... nik. and there's a method to my madness of signing out this way... bec. this way i know later on that my posts were not tampered with... or doctored in any fashion... as i almost never say a word after... OUT!!!

Well Nik.  I want you to know that I never had any intentions of trying to convince you of anything.  I think I would have better luck teaching a cat how to swim.

However... If you ever are interested to see things a bit differently, from my perspective, go to a Muslim website or StørmFrønt... and try to convince the people that the Hollocaust ISNT a conspiracy.  You will find that NO MATTER what you say to them... they will NEVER beleive you.

I actually used to do this a lot when I was younger.   They would always bring up the same old garbage, and I would argue and argue..... and bring up fact after fact... and they would always say that the evidence I was giving was forged or faked or from a zionist source... or they just wouldnt respond.. and would ignore my posts.  That's why I dont argue anymore with Conspiracy Theorists... because I know that they will NEVER change their mind. 

But with Lubab... I could sence that there was a LITTLE bit of doubt.  (Not much... but a little).  So thats why I broke from my old habbits and tried to answer all his questions... to see if I was wrong about my presumptions.  I have no idea if it worked... but we'll see.

Rest assured.. from here on out... I will be back to my same old self.. of ridiculing all conspiracies.  And that of course includes vatican conspiracies, moon landing conspiracies, JFK conspiracies, and whatever you can throw at me... SOOO.. .Keep em coming!!!!



What about the Rabin conspiracy. Most Israelis now believe that one. Do you mock that conspiracy as well?
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #178 on: July 17, 2008, 01:31:09 AM »
I think this is a fantastic debate.

I would love to see similar debates on the other 7 questions, but I don't know if I'll get my wish.

I'd be very curious to hear Brian's thoughts on why Bush didn't run for cover when he learned of the attacks and why they were doing drills to prevent the exact same attack on the same morning of the drills (odd or a gazillion to one). But by all means let's let this debate run its course before we go on to other matters.

Answers to the first ... BUSH IS A MORON!!!!!  HAHAHAHAH

I too was perplexed by how Bush reacted.  He just stood there and stared into empty space.   That just proves he's clueless.  Obviously if it were pre-planned... he woulda had some pre-planned reaction. 

Here is a great comic on Bush and 9/11 conspiracies.


And here is another great (and funny) commentary:
http://debunking911.com/meeting.htm


Also... if it were a conspiracy... here is a list of all the people and organizations that would need to have been in on it:

http://debunking911.com/massivect.htm

For the second part.  That was just a rumor... a nasty one.. but still a rumor.

From what I could find, that rumor came from the following information:

on September 12, Pier 92, there was going to have a drill for a biochemical attack.
The day before (9/11) there were hundreds of people from out of town, from FEMA, from the Federal Government, from the State, from the State Emergency Management Office, and they were getting ready for this drill.
Of course... after 9/11... they obviously called off the frill for 9/12

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #179 on: July 17, 2008, 02:00:33 AM »
I think this is a fantastic debate.

I would love to see similar debates on the other 7 questions, but I don't know if I'll get my wish.

I'd be very curious to hear Brian's thoughts on why Bush didn't run for cover when he learned of the attacks and why they were doing drills to prevent the exact same attack on the same morning of the drills (odd or a gazillion to one). But by all means let's let this debate run its course before we go on to other matters.

Answers to the first ... BUSH IS A MORON!!!!!  HAHAHAHAH

I too was perplexed by how Bush reacted.  He just stood there and stared into empty space.   That just proves he's clueless.  Obviously if it were pre-planned... he woulda had some pre-planned reaction. 

Here is a great comic on Bush and 9/11 conspiracies.


And here is another great (and funny) commentary:
http://debunking911.com/meeting.htm


Also... if it were a conspiracy... here is a list of all the people and organizations that would need to have been in on it:

http://debunking911.com/massivect.htm

For the second part.  That was just a rumor... a nasty one.. but still a rumor.

From what I could find, that rumor came from the following information:

on September 12, Pier 92, there was going to have a drill for a biochemical attack.
The day before (9/11) there were hundreds of people from out of town, from FEMA, from the Federal Government, from the State, from the State Emergency Management Office, and they were getting ready for this drill.
Of course... after 9/11... they obviously called off the frill for 9/12

This just proves one of my points that those who stick to the official story are forced to assume TREMENDOUS incompetence on the part of our government. And a whole slew of coincidences. At some point you have to say...gimmie a break...nobody is that stupid...and that many coincidences don't all happen on the same day. You can believe it...but if you do then  YOU should be the one accused  of  believing in far-fetched theories not me.

I heard an interview between him and Rush Limbaugh where he was sharp as a tack...I just  don't believe he's all that dumb as he's made out to be. Even if he really was  that dumb, he should be prosecuted for criminal negligence. He had a fiduciary duty as Commander in Cheif  to get off his butt and try to prevent further attacks and try to do something to save the folks screaming for their lives at the top of those towers.

The 9/11 drill that took place wasn't just a rumor it was reported on the cover of USA today. Mainstream story.

That list you post is interesting but I would point out that, for instance, you don't need NORAD to be in on it...you just need Cheney to be in on it and he tells NORAD what and what not to do. It only takes a very small group of people to pull this off...as long as that small group has decision making power over all their inferiors who would be necessary to pull it off.  The inferiors just take orders, they don't need to know the whole story.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline AsheDina

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2008, 02:10:53 AM »
nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it

Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.

There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.

This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.

Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.

What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.

Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.

Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.

Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
 

 Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann.  I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up.  Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.

wOO HOOO!!!!   You like me!!!!  YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!!  :)

I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.



 I thought your name was Briann, not Sally. 
 Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
 
 I still have the 50 BUX.
 Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.
SHEMA ISRAEL
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Offline Americanhero1

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2008, 02:15:00 AM »
nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it

Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.

There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.

This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.

Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.

What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.

Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.

Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.

Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
 

 Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann.  I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up.  Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.

wOO HOOO!!!!   You like me!!!!  YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!!  :)

I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.



 I thought your name was Briann, not Sally. 
 Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
 
 I still have the 50 BUX.
 Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.

Sally

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2008, 02:19:41 AM »
Re: that list of all the people who are in on it. A lot of those people are on the list  just for not calling for an investigation.

First of all most of the 9-11 families do call for a new and independent investigation.

Several firefighters and first responders also have called for an investigation. They are particularly pissed off because the government told  them the air is okay to breathe and now most of them are dying as a result of the fact that they weren't wearing masks.

But always remember how much mockery one must  face when you express doubt about this kind of stuff...just look at Rosie Odonnel (not that I like her at all)...but just see what happens to people's careers when they questions this stuff.

There was a 9-11 truth protest during the RNC convention. The newly militirized cops hauled a bunch of them into an asbestos filled wearehouse for no reason. Maybe you read about this. So people who subscribe to this theory have a much more difficult life than the rest of us so it makes a lot of sense to me that most people would just shut up and do what  their superiors tell them to do. They don't need to be "in on it"...they just need to be willfullly ignorant which is how most people are today. They just need to NOT ask questions, NOT object to what they're being told to do, NOT challenge the status  quo and how many people really do that these days?

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2008, 02:21:57 AM »
nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it

Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.

There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.

This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.

Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.

What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.

Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.

Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.

Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
 

 Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann.  I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up.  Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.

wOO HOOO!!!!   You like me!!!!  YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!!  :)

I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.



 I thought your name was Briann, not Sally. 
 Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
 
 I still have the 50 BUX.
 Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.

Guys let's please try to keep this a serious thread and stay on topic and respect other people's opinions. I started  this thread and I kindly request no distractions to the actual discussion of the facts and the evidence, the logic etc.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline AsheDina

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2008, 02:28:09 AM »
OK Lubab- the serious part is that WE GOT ATTACKED. The RIDICULOUS part is that people think Bush did IT TO US. 
(Even great debaters stop for a laugh)

 NOBODY will get ME to believe in what some of you re trying to trump up- not in a million years.
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Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #185 on: July 17, 2008, 02:38:27 AM »


There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars.  This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary.  Because it turned out to be a dead-end.


[/quote]

Not entirely true.
PBS did report on the gold underneath the building and its disappearance. This is from their "mainstream" website:
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html

Also, the issue is not mentioned in loose change but it is brought up in Alex Jones' 9-11 truth movies.
Also, some kids confronted Guilani about the issue once and he got pretty pissed and wouldn't say anything about it...why not just calmly explain that it's a complete lie.

[/quote]

Again..  very few 9/11 truthers bring this up anymore since it was baseless to begin with.  BTW Loose Change DID bring this up.  However.. The creator kept changing his story... and finally dropped it altogether when it was found to be baseless.

There was an unidentified rumors that $160 billion in gold bullion from the federal reserve was stored under the World Trade Center.  (Again NO PROOF of this)

It was later revealed that The Federal Reserve Bank is NOT in the basement of the World Trade Center, but was approximately 2 blocks away and was not damaged in the attacks. (If they wanted $ they would have attacked this building)

3 year later a caller to the Bill Bochiers radio program on WLW, Cincinnati (11-06-04) told of a report from HER FRIEND who worked at the WTC. The friend said that on the morning of 9-11 she was on her way to her job at the World Trade Center, along the route she normally took. As she turned a corner at the base of the Center, she saw two large flat bed trucks parked at one of the entrances. One of the trucks had already been loaded and had its contents covered by a large tarp. The second truck was in the process of having its bed loaded with stacks of solid gold bars.

Again..  NO collaberation... AND the women was anonymous...   Theres just no proof of any of this.

When they finally did all the recovering of the gold and silver that was found in the vaults of the COMEX (commodity exhcange) trading vaults, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that roughly $230 million worth of gold and silver bars that had been found.

However.. Timesonline gave an estimation saying that there may have been as much as $950 million of total gold in the COMEX vaults. 
This led to speculation that 720 million of gold was stolen... again no proof of anything... and WHY would you go after THIS gold and silver... when 200 TIMES as much money is in the building next store?

And Again.. this was completely different than what the Consp Theorists were talking about orignially... they were saying that there was a secret Federal Reserve of $170 billion that was stolen.

Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #186 on: July 17, 2008, 02:40:21 AM »

 I thought your name was Briann, not Sally. 
 Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
 
 I still have the 50 BUX.
 Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.

Darnn I thought I got something for being the best debater.  :(



Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #187 on: July 17, 2008, 02:47:25 AM »


There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars.  This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary.  Because it turned out to be a dead-end.



Not entirely true.
PBS did report on the gold underneath the building and its disappearance. This is from their "mainstream" website:
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html

Also, the issue is not mentioned in loose change but it is brought up in Alex Jones' 9-11 truth movies.
Also, some kids confronted Guilani about the issue once and he got pretty pissed and wouldn't say anything about it...why not just calmly explain that it's a complete lie.

[/quote]

Again..  very few 9/11 truthers bring this up anymore since it was baseless to begin with.  BTW Loose Change DID bring this up.  However.. The creator kept changing his story... and finally dropped it altogether when it was found to be baseless.

There was an unidentified rumors that $160 billion in gold bullion from the federal reserve was stored under the World Trade Center.  (Again NO PROOF of this)

It was later revealed that The Federal Reserve Bank is NOT in the basement of the World Trade Center, but was approximately 2 blocks away and was not damaged in the attacks. (If they wanted $ they would have attacked this building)

3 year later a caller to the Bill Bochiers radio program on WLW, Cincinnati (11-06-04) told of a report from HER FRIEND who worked at the WTC. The friend said that on the morning of 9-11 she was on her way to her job at the World Trade Center, along the route she normally took. As she turned a corner at the base of the Center, she saw two large flat bed trucks parked at one of the entrances. One of the trucks had already been loaded and had its contents covered by a large tarp. The second truck was in the process of having its bed loaded with stacks of solid gold bars.

Again..  NO collaberation... AND the women was anonymous...   Theres just no proof of any of this.

When they finally did all the recovering of the gold and silver that was found in the vaults of the COMEX (commodity exhcange) trading vaults, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that roughly $230 million worth of gold and silver bars that had been found.

However.. Timesonline gave an estimation saying that there may have been as much as $950 million of total gold in the COMEX vaults. 
This led to speculation that 720 million of gold was stolen... again no proof of anything... and WHY would you go after THIS gold and silver... when 200 TIMES as much money is in the building next store?

And Again.. this was completely different than what the Consp Theorists were talking about orignially... they were saying that there was a secret Federal Reserve of $170 billion that was stolen.

[/quote]
You are obviously well informed. I like that. What about the story about Guiliani getting rid of the rubble so fast? Is there anything to that story?
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #188 on: July 17, 2008, 02:57:08 AM »
OK Lubab- the serious part is that WE GOT ATTACKED. The RIDICULOUS part is that people think Bush did IT TO US. 
(Even great debaters stop for a laugh)

 NOBODY will get ME to believe in what some of you re trying to trump up- not in a million years.

That's because you don't really know George W. Bush. You THINK you know who he is but you really don't. His grandaddy (prescott bush) was a NAZI. He was very instrumental in helping Hitler get elected.  If you research the ties between Nazism and the Bush's you'll find they are pretty darn strong. 
 
And both W. and Pappy Bush go every year to the Bohemian Grove to participate in mock (or possibly real) child sacrific to Lucifer and Moloch (the false idol we are specifically told not to worship in the Bible in the form of child sacrifices). These sickos  have been caught on tape doing this ritual and it is real and yes Bush attends every year.

Homosexuality is also rampant at these Bohemian Grove sicko celebrations. They are basically a party for some of our most powerful world leaders to celebrate everything the G-d of Israel hates.   

I'm sure you're also aware he's a long time member of the devil worshiping Skull and Bones.
That's the real George W. Bush. No man of any principle would be caught anywhere near these Satan worshiping cults.

These guys are not conservatives, and they're not Christians. They're evil  Paullette and if they can celebrate the death (real or mock) of an innocent child then don't think for too long that they value the lives of you and me either.

Power. That's all most politicians care about. They are elitists and Chaim has opened our eyes to this for years.

A year before 9-11 Cheney said in a report called "Rebuilding America's Defenses" that a "Pearl Harbor type of event" would be helpful for us to invade Iraq and take out Saddam. So it's not so far fetched. They needed an event like this because they wanted in to Iraq and Saddam out. Chaim has explained to us clearly how the Iraq War has been a disaster as far as an effective fight in the war on terror. They did it for their own selfish reasons, not because they care about us.

Our government has done many false flag operations all over the world to replace dictators we don't like in other countries. I don't find it so hard to believe they could've done it here too.

 
I know that nobody WANTS to believe anyone could be so evil...but we can't bury our heads in the sand...we need to do our own investigation and that's what I'm trying to do here. And I do really appreciate Brian sharing his knowledge to help clarify what really happened.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 03:03:08 AM by Lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #189 on: July 17, 2008, 02:59:40 AM »
Ok Lubab... your going way off-topic now.  Im dont want to hear about how tough it is for conspiratory beleivers.

.. a man name David Irving is spending 3 years in a jail for publicly denying the existance of a hollocaust in the Austria.  Yes... it is VERY tough for him.. and yes... it may be unfair that he is in jail... BUT... that doesnt make his conspiracies any more believable.

And YES... Rosie O'donnel has been mocked and made fun of... but that doesnt change the fact that her facts are all WRONG... and extremely easy to dissprove.

I have very politely answered every question I have been asked of the conspiracy claims.  I have not skipped a SINGLE question you or Nik asked me personally.  So now that I have done this.. you have to answer questions from me.

WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?

What do you think of people who seek to dissprove the Hollocaust?  What motivates them?

How are you different from them??
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 03:41:08 AM by briann »

Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #190 on: July 17, 2008, 03:15:03 AM »
Quote
You are obviously well informed. I like that. What about the story about Guiliani getting rid of the rubble so fast? Is there anything to that story?

Thanks  :), the internet helped a lot as well.

I have no idea why he got rid of the rubble so fast...   :)  I haven't heard from anyone that he was obstructing justice in any way or trying to cover up anything.  I just dont know.

Offline nikmatdam

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #191 on: July 17, 2008, 03:19:26 AM »
and with this i rest my case for the moment... you will need time to read this piece... that is if any of you have the guts to search for the truth and are not already brain-dead... and bry... the holocaust was a conspiracy... the slime nazi gov'ts. the world over were all in it... includ. the bloody brits. and the money-hungry amer. and even the pre-gov't groveling,  jewish agency types over in "palest-ine..." they were all in on the kill and the cover-up... and it WAS all a hoax... we have all been lied to all of these many years after... because they didn't kill 6 million jews...

they told weizmann he would have to let it go down and that maybe 2 mil. would perish and he then went and got ben gurion to sign off on it... and then he went to the u.s. and got ss weiss and the amer. sick jewish leadership infrastructure to back this play to do all of eastern-european torah jewry...  ah... but then they double-crossed all of these diseased and demented jews who pre-agreed in the '30's to the slaughter of the 2mil. of their own brothers and sisters... fathers and mothers... sons and daughters... and grandparents... and the dirty, filthy slime of this world... esav and yishmael aligned together with the afore mentioned satanic jews whose main roles were to squelch all protests, boycotts and all rescue efforts from within the jewish communities in amer., in europe (primarily among the brave jews within gr. britain) and of course in palest-ine... getting these jews there to blockade any and all shipments of escaping jewish souls from the hell hole that is the european cont. and round them all up and send them all back as so much unwanted and undesired cargo... and so the deed was done... the war prolonged as much as possible to provide cover for the genocide to go on and on without surcease... until all 7mil.jews lay dead... yes... that's right... 7... 7 million jewish neshamot perished and were murdered... not  just 6...

for they on purpose decided the world could not handle the knowledge of an extra mil. of babies... and so only 1 1/2 mil. children were accounted as slaughtered... when actually it was 2 1/2 mil.... for apparently the goyim think 6 total is not so bad... and 7 would be too horrific...  that 1 1/2 jewish kids is just fine but 2 1/2 might be pushing it a mite and so better not count the babies in... esp. since they were so tiny... i mean... whose to ever know...? right...? they were born in the camps or shot immediately upon raiding the jewish cities, towns and villages... and no pesky reporters were ever around back then to witness it all... so lie... "hell... we already killed them... so lying about they ever existed in the first place ain't so hard..."

but the truth will always out... Hashem makes certain of that... and He will out the truth about 9/11 as He already has about the holocaust and jfk and viet nam and iran-contra... and so many others... it may take another 30 or 40 years... who knows...? but the truth will out... pity not too many of us will be around to know that i was right... no biggie though... 'cause i don't need your corroboration or concurrence... i've got the evidence and i've found the truth... by the grace of G-d and by His help... and so i live in the light while you all live in the dark on so many things... too bad... such a shame... but maybe one day soon your eyes will be open... esp. about what's still out there for us unfortunately... due to the fact that absolutely nothing has changed in this sick world of ours since the shoah... things have only gotten about a million times worse... and what's coming our way soon... ww3... will make appear as mere child's play of what happened in ww's 1&2 combined... G-d forbid... lo alenu... please spare us and bring moshiach first... but if not hopefully alot of you at least will wake up before it becomes too late... it already is so very late and there isn't a magic bullet i can tell you of to stop this carnage and death in its tracks and prevent it from coming... but i'll keep trying...   be back tom... meanwhile here's your homework assignment on conspiracy theories... class dismissed... good night... nik. out...

www.hirhome.com

 
What is conspiracy theory?
Is this website doing it?

Historical and Investigative Research - 4 October 2005
by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/conspiracy.htm
__________________________________________________________

I have been asked more than once whether this website is doing ‘conspiracy theory.’ But this is something that each reader must decide on his or her own. Doing so may not be easy, because the expression ‘conspiracy theory’ contains a certain complexity of meaning that people seldom stop to analyze. So what I will do here is briefly explain what ‘conspiracy theory’ means, in all its complexity. Once I do that, you can decide for yourself whether the content of this website bears a sufficient resemblance to what this familiar expression denotes.

But first, a quick word about meaning.


How does meaning work?
_______________________

The meaning of a word or term can be inferred only from its usage. In other words, whichever way it is that most people use a certain word, that is what it means. Certain institutions have great power when it comes to influencing common word-usage; therefore, these institutions have great power over the meanings of words. For example, The New York Times has circulation figures that seem fantastic: its home delivery fluctuates between 600,000 and more than a million.[1] That’s just home delivery. In addition, The New York Times is bought on the newsstand by lots of people, and NYT content is reproduced in many other news venues. Thus, if The New York Times uses the term ‘conspiracy theory’ a certain way, then a lot of people will be directly influenced to use the term in precisely the same manner, and their usages will influence others (especially if New York Times readers are considered cultural leaders, which I think you will agree that they are).

Dictionary companies produce their definitions by looking systematically at examples of mainstream published writing; the logic is that mainstream published writing is being read by many people, and therefore its uses of words cannot very well be idiosyncratic. So The New York Times has a huge effect on what dictionaries eventually decide is the definition of a term, because The New York Times is the most prestigious English-language mainstream print source. Through this channel, The New York Times again has a sizeable impact on common usage, because when ordinary people are in doubt about a word, they consult dictionaries.

The meanings of words have an effect on your mind, naturally, because most of your thinking is conducted with words. George Orwell once tried to explain this, but very few people really got it. The point is that if
The New York Times has a huge effect on the meanings of English words, and you are an English speaker, then The New York Times is having a huge effect on your mind, whether or not you read the New York Times.

Now, let us move to the meaning of ‘conspiracy theory.’


What is the meaning of 'conspiracy theory'?
______________________________________

One thing about dictionary definitions is that they often leave much important information out. For example, if you go to Dictionary.com, it will tell you that ‘conspiracy theory’ means

“A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.”

Okay as far as it goes, but it doesn’t tell you whether such theories are held to carry a certain connotation, generating a particular attitude towards them. We can certainly glean this missing information, however, by looking at how ‘conspiracy theory’ is used in the pages of The New York Times.

I asked the Lexis-Nexis database, on 3 October 2005, to give me any and all appearances of the terms ‘conspiracy theory’ or ‘conspiracy theories’ in The New York Times during the preceding five years (this is a test that anybody with access to this database can repeat). The output is a list of NYT newspaper articles, ordered in chronological order and starting with the last. The list is exceedingly long -- too much data. What to do? I decided to start with the first article in the list, and move backward in time, one by one -- no cherry-picking. I will stop when my point has been made (this will happen quickly).

In this first article, the relevant passage explains that Eamonn Kelly, author of a book called Powerful Times, predicts that,

“‘Our world will grow more transparent. Our ability to collect, integrate, interpret and distribute data will increase exponentially.’ But all of that data [being available] means that people will be able to use bits and pieces to build whatever hypotheses they like. As a result, he says, a ‘growing abundance of conspiracy theories and falsehoods will travel the world instantaneously’ and ‘the very tools of connectivity that will enable so much transparency will also serve to enable more sophisticated means of theft and fraud.’”[2]

With no more context than this we can see that “conspiracy theories” are associated with nothing but bad things. For one, they are introduced with falsehoods as a phrase: “conspiracy theories and falsehoods.” And they result from ignorance -- from people using only “bits and pieces” of information because this information is too “transparent” and therefore does not have sufficient official controls. Ordinary people, then, lacking any discipline of thought, will just build “whatever hypotheses they like” with this total access to information, producing obviously incorrect “conspiracy theories.” There may even be an implied connection here between “conspiracy theories” and “theft and fraud.”

It is important to note that these are not the connotations of the term “bad conspiracy theories,” for there is no such qualifier in the text above. Conspiracy theories as a class are understood to be incorrect, so that denigrating them with a negative qualifier (as in “absurd conspiracy theories”) would merely be to add redundant emphasis.

I pass to the second article in the list.

This one is talking about an old underground film called “Peep Show,” purporting to be a documentary, and which some attribute to one J.X. Williams. The film, according to The New York Times, “tells a tangled tale of a rigged 1960 election, secret C.I.A. training camps in the Florida outback, sex stings in Mafia hotels and a little-known Mob plot to addict Frank Sinatra to heroin.” So this is a film that alleges the ruling elite does bad things in secret, including the corruption of the democratic process, and it lumps accusations of secret doings by the ruling elite with the activities of organized crime. In other words, this is a ‘conspiracy theory’ film.

The film is a fraud, explains the Times, because it is made out of stock footage from commercial movies, carefully pasted together to simulate a documentary. I am also told that “Roughly 100 gay sex pulp novels were published under the alleged author's byline [J.X. Williams] throughout the 50’s and 60’s,” but they were in fact written by various different authors; the supposed ‘Williams’ -- allegedly in mysterious self-imposed exile -- most likely does not exist.

The New York Times has lots of fun pointing all of this out, but nothing is funnier than the newspaper's remarks concerning Noel Lawrence, whom the Times considers an even bigger clown than the nonexistent ‘Williams.’ This Lawrence calls himself the curator of the Williams oeuvre, the proper attribution of which requires that Lawrence violate copyright law, as currently somebody else’s name is on every one of those films. The New York Times makes savage fun of Noel Lawrence, and closes the piece with a self-evident irony, which is Lawrence’s fallback explanation of Williams’ purpose:

“. . .when pushed on any contradiction. . ., [Lawrence] defaults to a defense of Williams as perhaps the first postmodernist. ‘I think what J.X. [Williams] was trying to do in certain ways -- and maybe this part was prescient,’ he said, ‘was to present a film that was a parody of conspiracy theory. . .’”[3]

In other words, somewhat pathetically, Lawrence here defeats the whole J.X. Williams rebellious mystique (“Peep Show” was supposed to have been suppressed) by defending the alleged filmmaker as someone who merely meant to make fun of ‘conspiracy theory,’ not -- heaven forbid -- propose, and much less document, one. And this, says Lawrence, was “prescient,” for which my thesaurus spits out “prophetic” and “clairvoyant,” meaning that we are now all making fun of ‘conspiracy theory.’ So J.X. Williams wasn’t a nonexistent radical documenting the crimes of the powerful, he was a nonexistent ironic artist ahead of his time, one of the first to teach that ‘conspiracy theory’ was laughable.

I remind you that my point here is neither to attack nor defend “Peep Show.” I haven't seen the film, and I don't care. The point is merely to document the manner in which the New York Times employs the term ‘conspiracy theory.’ What we find, once again, is that for the New York Times a ‘conspiracy theory’ -- for example, claims of CIA dirty tricks, underworld Mob doings, corruption of democracy by the powerful, and such -- is most likely a fraud that intelligent people, as opposed to fools such as Noel Lawrence, are expected to laugh at.

I pass to the third example. About the death of Pope John Paul II, The New York Times wrote:

“The Vatican has published a meticulous account of Pope John Paul II’s final days, vividly describing his last hours and providing an official chronology of his death.

. . .The Vatican did not provide a similar report for John Paul’s predecessor, Pope John Paul I, who died in 1978, just over a month into his papacy. As a result, conspiracy theories abounded about his death.

George Weigel, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington and a papal biographer, said the Vatican’s report on John Paul II should be construed as an effort ‘to clarify the sequence of events.’

‘It is important to have that on the record before the myth makers take over,’ he said in a telephone interview.”[4]

Something else that falls in the category ‘conspiracy theory’ is the idea that a pope may have been murdered by the Vatican. A voice of authority -- George Weigel, a “senior fellow” at something calling itself the “Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington,” and also a “papal biographer” -- explains that official statements by the Vatican are equivalent to “the record,” and they should be construed as efforts to tell the truth, for they are meant “to clarify the sequence of events.” By contrast, the suggestion that a pope may have been assassinated by the Vatican leadership is the sort of thing that “myth makers” will engage in. And notice that, once again, what opens the field to the “myth makers,” as in our first example, is the absence of properly controlled official information: if only the Vatican had not neglected to produce an official report for the death of John Paul I, the undisciplined thinking of ordinary people would not have produced so many “conspiracy theories” which, needless to say, are incorrect.

Three out of three. All usages of ‘conspiracy theory’ so far have been perfectly consistent.

This could go on forever. I’ve made my point. According to how this term is used in The New York Times, ‘conspiracy theories’ will be theories that stipulate that the ruling elite is doing bad things in secret. Such theories are supposed to be laughable, stupid, and wrong, and what makes them flourish is an absence of adequately controlled, official information. My claim is that the way The New York Times uses ‘conspiracy theory’ is how people in general use this term, and to see whether I am right you need only type ‘conspiracy theory’ into an online search engine such as Google, performing your own analysis of common usage. I predict that your conclusions will match mine.

Now you see why this exercise was necessary before you could answer for yourself whether this website is an example of ‘conspiracy theory.’ We may now consider this question.


Is this a 'conspiracy theory' website?
________________________________

It is certainly the case that articles and books on this website allege that many people in power are doing bad things in secret. You will find, for example, many allegations that US Intelligence has engaged in specific acts of criminal behavior, causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and even millions of innocent people, and hurting the interests of ordinary Americans, to whom nothing is said. You will also encounter the claim, repeatedly, that the Western mass media is controlled by the Western intelligence services. However, the ineluctable linkage that The New York Times makes between these kinds of claims and supposedly obvious incorrectness is one that does not follow.

It is not in principle impossible for the ruling elite to do bad things in secret, and they have in fact been caught doing bad things in secret many times. Just to give one famous example, during the 1980s it came to light that US Intelligence was training a terrorist force in Nicaragua that engaged in wholesale slaughter of Nicaraguan peasants, aid workers, priests and nuns, and even schoolchildren: the Contras. Here is how one newspaper summarized Contra activities:

“The Contras have ambushed religious-aid workers, beheading a nun and riddling her body with bullets. They have also eviscerated a pregnant woman, shot campesinos (peasants) and slaughtered their animals, cut down Red Cross workers and bombed towns with their schools and hospitals.”[4a]

They were doing all this on the CIA's instructions, something that was demonstrated when a former Contra (Edgar Chamorro) produced the CIA training manual that taught these thugs to murder innocent people.[5] None of the people responsible did any jail time, which means there is no real disincentive to doing this, and many of them are back in office in Bush Jr.’s administration, which naturally increases the probability that they are at it again.

Thus, if someone makes a claim that the ruling elite is doing bad things in secret this is not necessarily laughable, stupid, and wrong. Those who accused the US ruling elite of having created a terrorist force that slaughtered Nicaraguan peasants were right. And the same goes for those who accused that, at the same time, the US ruling elite was arming the Iranian terrorists during the Iran-Iraq war (while claiming to oppose them). Precisely because they were right, the discovery of the double-conspiracy in the mid-1980s was labeled the "Iran-Contra scandal."

Whether specific allegations that those in power engage in criminal activities are sensible allegations or not answers to the question: "Is there evidence for such allegations?" When such claims do not agree with our best scientific efforts to establish the facts, then we may consider them incorrect. But we certainly should not dismiss such claims as a matter of principle, and neither should we pretend that consulting the official press releases of the institutions presided by the ruling elite will be the way to scientifically investigate such claims.

So is this website an example of ‘conspiracy theory’?

You will be the judge. The articles in this website contain a footnote for every claim. This makes it possible for any interested reader to consult my stated source for that particular claim, and check whether I misquoted it, distorted it, took it out of context, or simply made up the information. You do not have to guess whether “anonymous” or “unnamed” sources, according to whom I state that X is true, really exist. Why? Because I do not use such sources. When, for whatever reason, it is impossible to identify or else reveal a source for a claim, then I do not make that claim. I only make claims that you can check.

Why?

For a very simple reason. When there is no mechanism for the reader to identify a fraud, the reader can be lied to with impunity, so why should the reader believe anything? Yes, of course, I know that The New York Times attributes lots of things to “unnamed sources,” never providing a single footnote, and also that many people unquestioningly believe everything they read in The New York Times. The question is whether this is rational. Science requires that others be able to verify what you claim. In other words, scientists do not trust each other to tell the truth, and by not trusting, they create the conditions that allow for the identification of frauds. Only when such conditions exist can a reader have any confidence that there is an incentive to tell the truth. I have gone out of my way to make it possible for my readers to show that I got anything wrong. And to make the process of verification easier, whenever I can provide a web-link to any particular piece of information, I do.

Every individual person can make up his or her own mind whether my hypotheses are plausible -- that is, whether they appear to agree with enough facts that they ought to be considered. If you decide that they ought to be, then this website is not an example of ‘conspiracy theory,’ because my claims about how the ruling elite does bad things in secret will be neither laughably absurd nor necessarily incorrect.


Final reflections
______________

Here is an interesting question to ponder: In what kind of society will it be easiest for the ruling elite to do bad things in secret, to everybody else’s disadvantage, without people finding out? In my view, in a society where most people believe that claims about the ruling elite doing bad things in secret must be laughably absurd and therefore necessarily incorrect -- you know, ‘conspiracy theories.’

I would submit that this is a law of anthropology: When those in power are watched less, they tend to get away with more.

On the basis of this law, if someone ever asks you the question, ‘Might there not be conspiracies by the ruling elite?’, you can already produce an intelligent guess even without doing any research on any specific allegation of conspiracy. You can ask yourself this: Is it the case that most people automatically believe that conspiracies cannot be happening? The answer is yes, because ‘conspiracy theories’ are supposed to be automatically idiotic. This makes conspiracies much easier to carry out, and with such a tremendous incentive, it would be surprising if the ruling elites were not in fact taking advantage. But in order to find out what exactly the ruling elites are or aren’t doing, of course, scientific research -- i.e. research that other people can verify -- will be necessary, because false accusations of conspiracy are also possible, and publications that allege conspiracies without providing documentation should not be trusted.

I leave you with this question. How to interpret the fact that The New York Times, which is supposed to be keeping an eye on government, tells us that ‘conspiracy theories’ are automatically incorrect?


__________________________________________________________

Footnotes
__________________________________________________________

[1] http://www.nytco.com/investors-nyt-circulation.html

[2] Four Futures, All Without the Jetsons,  The New York Times, October 2, 2005 Sunday,  Late Edition - Final, Section 3; Column 1; Money and Business/Financial Desk; OFF THE SHELF; Pg. 8, 1069 words, By PAUL B. BROWN

[3] Wrapped in an Enigma, Hidden In a Film Archive,  The New York Times, October 2, 2005 Sunday,  Late Edition - Final, Section 2; Column 5; Arts and Leisure Desk; FILM; Pg. 22, 1180 words, By PAUL CULLUM, LOS ANGELES

[4] Vatican Releases Official Record Of Pope John Paul II's Final Days,  The New York Times, September 19, 2005 Monday,  Late Edition - Final, Section A; Column 1; Foreign Desk; Pg. 10, 498 words, By BRIAN WINGFIELD, ROME, Sept. 18

[4a] Contras cling to their war, The Toronto Star, April 29, 1990, Sunday, SUNDAY SECOND EDITION, NEWS; Pg. H1, 1030 words, By Linda Diebel Toronto Star, MANAGUA

[5] The man who created the Contra terrorist force for the CIA is Vincent Cannistraro, who didn't go to jail and who is pushed these days by the mainstream media Establishment as a "news analyst" you ought to trust on matters of foreign policy and intelligence. In fact he is often introduced as a counter-terrorism expert! To learn more about him, consult the following three HIR investigations:

“The mainstream Western media loves Raymond McGovern and Vincent Cannistraro, former CIA agents and anti-Israeli propagandists”; Historical and Investigative Research, 25 Aug 2005; by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot2.htm

“Should you believe ‘former CIA officials’ such as Raymond McGovern and Vincent Cannistraro?”; Historical and Investigative Research, 25 Aug 2005; by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot3.htm

“How the mass media covers for Vincent Cannistraro, terrorist, and creator of the Nicaraguan Contras”; Historical and Investigative Research, 25 Aug 2005; by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot4.htm

The last piece above discusses Edgar Chamorro, a former Contra who exposed that the CIA was training the Contras to murder civilians.
 

www.hirhome.com

 

"i am nikmatdam... humble and imperfect servant of Hashem... and i yearn for redemption but i absolutely ache for Divine justice and vengeance..."

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #192 on: July 17, 2008, 03:25:39 AM »
Ok Lubab... your going way off-topic now.  Im dont want to hear about how tough it is for conspiratory beleivers. 

.. a man name David Irving is spending 3 years in a jail for publicly denying the existance of a hollocaust in the Austria.  Yes... it is VERY tough for him.. and yes... it may be unfair that he is in jail... BUT... that doesnt make his conspiracies any more believable.

And YES... Rosie O'donnel has been mocked and made fun of... but that doesnt change the fact that her facts are all WRONG... and extremely easy to dissprove.

I have very politely answered every question I have been asked of the conspiracy claims.  I have not skipped a SINGLE question you or Nik asked me personally.  So now that I have done this.. you have to answer questions from me.

WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?

What do you think of people who seek to dissprove the Hollocaust?  What motivates them?

How are you different from them??










Okay the way this works is not that simple.

You have responded to many questions (I don't think all) but you have not "answered" them.

All you have done are give me some facts that help support the official position. You have (possibly) proven that things could have happened the way Washington says they did. You have also (possibly) pointed out certain flaws in the conspiracy theory videos (hey nobody's perfect right?).

That doesn't end the inquiry.
 
For instance, you might have proven fire could've done it...but you have not proven that explosives did NOT do it catch my drift?

So where do we stand?

We stand with an event that we all know happened.  And two views on why it happened and who was responsible.

The next step is to see which of the two narratives makes more logical sense. Which story is more likely?

So while it may be POSSIBLE for jet  fuel to have done this, I still think it's VERY UNLIKELY that it did. Once I've surveyed all the evidence and given your  websites the care and scrutiny they deserve  I may well conclude that while both scenarios are possible it's more likely that explosives from the inside did this than fire from jet fuel.

So while it is possible that our military was completely incompetent in dealing with these Air Threats, I think it's more likely that they were not that incompetent but rather were given an order to stand down.

So while it's possible Bush is so stupid  he couldn't realize he would be target #1 for the next attack and get out of there, I think it's unlikely. I think it makes more sense that someone acting the way he did had some inside knowledge that he wasn't going to be attacked.
I could go 50-50 on this one because if he knew  it was a conspiracy he likely would have done something that made him look  like he was helping the situation...but then we're back to Bush being dumb again.

So while it's possible that a passport containing the names of the hijackers survived the crash unscathed. I think it's unlikely. I think it's more likely that they were planted.

On a lot of these issues I can go either way...making a logical argument for either side...so I haven't decided conclusively either way.
I still need to look at the evidence more...and I may never be able to reach a conclusion either way and that's okay. It's okay to have doubts about what you think happened. If Bush were a bit more open to answering questions  about this event we could probably clear it up pretty quickly but he doesn't really allow for these kinds of questions...so we're kind of stuck.






 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 03:42:37 AM by Lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2008, 03:31:14 AM »
Nik.. do you want me to post all the garbage conspiracy that strormfront pushes?

Do you want me to show you post after post of them saying that JEWS are inherently evil... and JEWS (not catholics) are the ones that are responsible for 9/11 and everything else that is bad.

Do you want me to show you how they believe that Jews routinely kill Christian children in order to use their blood for Maza?

Do you want me to show you that they believe that the JEWS were the ones that committed genocide on the Nazi's and that the Nazis were just innocent?

You wont realize how awful and evil your conspiracies are unless... you see conspiracy theories that are aimed at YOU!!! (and me to) 





Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #194 on: July 17, 2008, 03:36:30 AM »
Re: WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?

Hey Brian,

When did you stop beating your wife? Do you like being asked  questions like that? I don't either.

I seek out this info because I know there are other theories other than Washington's theory and I simply want to know which theory is more credible. If someone is researching the holocoust conspiracies I would hope they would approach it with the same honesty and side with the story that seems most likely and credible just as a jury must do when deciding a court case.

There's always evidence to prove both sides in every court case, question is which story stacks us best?
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #195 on: July 17, 2008, 03:40:25 AM »
Nik.. do you want me to post all the garbage conspiracy that strormfront pushes?

Do you want me to show you post after post of them saying that JEWS are inherently evil... and JEWS (not catholics) are the ones that are responsible for 9/11 and everything else that is bad.

Do you want me to show you how they believe that Jews routinely kill Christian children in order to use their blood for Maza?

Do you want me to show you that they believe that the JEWS were the ones that committed genocide on the Nazi's and that the Nazis were just innocent?

You wont realize how awful and evil your conspiracies are unless... you see conspiracy theories that are aimed at YOU!!! (and me to) 






By the same logic we should just always believe what the prosecution says in every court case...because some criminal defendants make up vicious and phoney alibies that implicate perfectly innocent people...and you'd never want  that to happen to you!

It's illogical.

You need to take each theory on a case by case basis-weigh the evidence and see which narrative makes more sense.

You want us to believe that if one particularly conspiracy is bad then they all must be bad...and I just will never buy that.




"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #196 on: July 17, 2008, 03:43:50 AM »
Re: WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?

Hey Brian,

When did you stop beating your wife? Do you like being asked  questions like that? I don't either.

Woa Woa Woa why are you becoming rude???    I just spent a huge amount of time answering your questions in a polite way (Something that NO OTHER MEMBER WOULD DO and you respond to me this way??





Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #197 on: July 17, 2008, 03:49:10 AM »
Quote

You need to take each theory on a case by case basis-weigh the evidence and see which narrative makes more sense.

You want us to believe that if one particularly conspiracy is bad then they all must be bad...and I just will never buy that.


How do you decide which conspiracy is bad and which is good???   Again... I have heard this EXACT same argument with neo-nazis... and they pretend to be completely UNBIASED... and they tell me they are only trying to weigh the evidence.  and they keep telling me that they ONLY want to find the truth.   

Again...  flip things around.. .and look at how awful and evil Conspiracies are when they are aimed at YOU (and me).

When the conspiracy say that YOU!!! are reponsible for 9/11 and YOU are responsible for starting WWII.. etc etc. 
ITs hurtful and sickening... but it will give you an idea of what you are doing... if you continue to pursue this line of thought.

Anyhoo... I gotta go to sleep.  But I hope in the future... you will think twice before pursuing this kind of nonsence.

Take care :)




« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 04:05:28 AM by briann »

Offline nikmatdam

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #198 on: July 17, 2008, 04:04:53 AM »
go for it... bry... for there is a huge difference between them and me... i'm speaking the truth... and they are all willfully lying... i have no invested need or interest in the slime being in existence and in hating them... i objectively found this evidence and other evidence that explains why there is so much seeming evidence that seems to indicate that we jews are the real culprits who have done this whole thing to and against the world or the goyim... and they at StørmFrønt et al are all a bunch of liars... who do have an unquenchable hatred for jews and do have a vested interest in making us the guilty party to crimes of history against all of mankind.. plus they all need to cover up and make someone else take the fall for them... exactly bec. all these sick things have been perpt on the world throughout all-time... and thus while we were being exiled and murdered and plundered and raped and locked away in ghettos for nearly 1700 years... some of us were yet free enough to roam the planet... enough of us... strong enough... wealthy enough... powerful enough to get goyish hordes to kill and steal for us... fight world wars for us... conquer, colonize and exploit the resources of the third world for us... and all the while we had the perfect hideout and cover-story...  for guess what world... we were being abused, beaten and tortured too and kept like animals in cages!!!! and that's our alibi... r...i...g...h...t... hey bry... you want that beach property in ariz. i have for you... now...?

think!!! think for just one second... who had all the power thru history...? esav/rome/europe... who had the motive and opportunity and desire to dominate the world...? the same... and who had the power to cover it all up and blame someone else...? the jews of europe or the church and royal families...? the elite-slime who always lived like kings and queens or the hapless and hopeless denizens of a despised and thoroughly discredited and beaten-down and psychologically whipped religious faith...? you know as it turns out... Hashem knew what He was doing to let us live thru and absorb all that horror for so long... bec. we can be blamed for all this evil... but it can never be believed by the decent folk of the earth... and we will be totally vindicated one day in the eyes of all mankind...

because we can even now still prove our total and complete innocence of these false charges... we are clean... and G-d thru our agony can exonerate us on the world docket... jews like the rothchilds and kissingers of history can certainly be pointed to but they never died for their crimes... only the little jews did... only or mostly the torah jews suffered for the satanic sins of the kapo jews... so those jews may give the lie to the goyim to use... but the leaders of the goyim who wield these lies like an axe... they know it's just an excuse that they use to justify their jew-icide thru history and the proof is in the very fact that they leave these highfalutin creep, traitor jews alone and only concentrate on killing the ones of us who never had any power and never had a single evil thought to harm the peoples of the earth... never once did it cross their holy and pure minds to do any of this... not once... not ever... we have only cared for the world and prayed for her... and worked on ourselves to serve G-d and befriend man... and G-d does everything for a purpose and for our own true good... and this is one thing He has done for us... He has made it impossible for these diseased charges to ever stick and appear to be accurate in the minds of the unpolluted members of humanity... so let the filth say what they will and believe what they want... they are demented and in the end everyone is going to know they are lying... and this will one day include the high-scumbags too... people will catch on that they are just as low as the low-scum of StørmFrønt or the kkk and their ilk... white-trash both with money and without... the white-trash epitaph... is for the white elitist and the white low-life equally... the ones who hates G-d, jews, torah and israel only... not for any other white man or woman... and i shouldn't have to say this to anyone here any longer... you have to know by now who i am referring to and to whom i am not... and only to them as well when i say something this shocking and controversial... i have no more to give tonite... i only continued bec. this got in ahead of my signing off...   nik. out...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 04:20:29 AM by nikmatdam »
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Offline briann

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Re: 8 Nagging Questions About 9-11
« Reply #199 on: July 17, 2008, 04:07:47 AM »
go for it... for there is a huge difference between them and me... i'm speaking the truth... and they are all willfully lying... i have no invested need or interest in the slime being in existence and in hating them... i objectively found this evidence and other evidence that explains why there is so much seeming evidence that seems to indicate that we jews are the real culprits who have done this whole thing to and against the world or the goyim... and they the liars... do have an unquenchable hatred for jews and do have a vested interest in making us the guilty party to crimes of history against all of mankind.. plus they all need to cover up and make someone else take the fall for them... exactly bec. all these sick things have been perpt on the world throughout all-time... and thus while we were being exiled and murdered and plundered and raped and locked away in ghettos for nearly 1700 years... some of us were yet free enough to roam the planet... enough of us... strong enough... wealthy enough... powerful enough to get goyish hordes to kill and steal for us... fight world wars for us... conquer, colonize and exploit the resources of the third world for us... and all the while we had the perfect hideout and cover-story... we were being abused beaten and tortured too and kept like animals in cages!!!! right... you want that beach property in ariz. now...?

think!!! think for just one second... who had all the power thru history...? esav/rome/europe... who had the motive and opportunity and desire to dominate the world...? the same... and who had the power to cover it all up and blame someone else...? the jews of europe or the church and royal families...? the elite-slime who always lived like kings and queens or the hapless and hopeless denizens of a despised and thoroughly discredited religious faith...? you know as it turns out... Hashem knew what He was doing to let us live thru and absorb all that horror for so long...bec. we can be blamed for all this evil... but we can even now still prove our total and complete innocence of these false charges... we are clean... and G-d thru our agony can exonerate us on the world docket... jews like the rothchilds and kissingers of history can certainly be pointed to but they never died for their crimes... only the little jews did... only or mostly the torah jews suffered for their satanic sins... so those jews may give the lie to the goyim to use... but they no it's just an excuse they use to justify jew-icide thru history and the proof is in the very fact that they leave these highfalutin creep, traitor jews alone and only concentrate on killing the ones of us who never had any power and never had a single evil thought to harm the peoples of the earth... never once did it cross their holy and pure minds to do any of this... not once... not ever... we have only cared for the world and prayed for her... and worked on ourselves to serve G-d and befriend man... and G-d does everything for a purpose and for our true good... and this is one thing He has done for us... make it impossible for these diseased charges to ever stick and appear to be accurate in the minds of the unpolluted members of humanity... so let the filth say what they will and believe what they want... they are demented and in the end everyone is going to know they are lying... and this will one day include the high-scumbags too... people will catch on that they are just as low as the low-scum of StørmFrønt or the kkk and their ilk... white-trash both with money and without... the white-trash epitaph... is for the white elitist and the white low-life equally... the ones who hates G-d, jews, torah and israel only... not for any other white man or woman... and i shouldn't have to say this to anyone here any longer... you have to know by now who i am referring to and to whom i am not... and only to them as well when i say something this shocking and controversial... i have no more to give tonite... i only continued bec. this got in ahead of my signing off...   nik. out...

Nik.. you know I am not going to post their hate. (You called my bluff I guess)

oh well.. I tried.  Again Nik.. be prepared for me to redicule you again tomorrow when you post your conspiracies again.  (And I will be vicious... in a funny sort of way)  :::D
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 04:10:55 AM by briann »