Why Aren't More Jews in the Military?

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

The charge of dual loyalty is anti-Semitic. The talk about "Israel firsters" is anti-Semitic.

Jews do not belong in America or any other country outside of Israel. Jews should not be politicians in America or soldiers or anything else. The fact that horselady DEMANDS that Jews serve in the American military, and calls Jews who don't serve "hypocrites" is also anti-Semitic. No loyal Jew would make statements like this.

Horselady says she responds to Nazis who single out Jews for supposedly not serving in the military by saying that Jews don't serve because they're liberals. What a brilliant response! You agree with the Nazi charge about Jews not serving, and you then add that Jews are anti-military liberals - are you trying to recruit for StørmFrønt with "great" arguments like this?

Aren't you the same person who opened a thread saying that you are anti-Semitic? That's also a brilliant argument: "I'm Jewish and even I'm anti-Semitic."

This is sick beyond belief.

[Bruicy Kibbutz]

Probally best summed up with this video

unlike israel those officers arent jews but arabs

[q_q_]

Probally best summed up with this video

unlike israel those officers arent jews but arabs

a clip of

"Residents of a Baghdad suburb protest after a U.S. soldier used the Koran for target practice. "

so of course , that sums everything up.

I've suggested many times already, put your borat avatar back - your avatar had a great bandage round his head.

[Zelhar]

I didn't get the impression that Horselady is a troll not anti-Jewish. However I think that in JTF we believe that there is not such thing as Jewish American, Jewish Filipino, or Jewish even Jewish Israeli. Because Jewish is a nationality as well as a religion. I think that a Jew who adopts a different nationality  is beginning the process of assimilation.

Jews must be loyal to America or any other country they live in, however they must also not get too involved in its politics, including wars. If America or any other country doesn't like that, then its Jews should simply leave.

[Maimonides]

This country has been the best country in the world to Jews like me and you. Without this country, I don't think Israel
would have become a state when it did.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The U.S. government in the 1940's opposed the creation of a Jewish State in what the British called the Palestinian Mandate.

When Israel declared independence in 1948 the U.S. put an arms embargo on the region, yet due to Jewish determination and the grace of Hashem the Jews won.

American aid to Israel has been a poison because the U.S. government seeks to undermine Israeli strength in order to appease the oil-soaked Muslims.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Without this country, I don't think Israel
would have become a state when it did.

The simplistic refrain of the ignorant...


And also those who wish to rub in Jews' faces that they "owe" America everything and better be "obedient"  .....

[muman613]

I didn't get the impression that Horselady is a troll not anti-Jewish. However I think that in JTF we believe that there is not such thing as Jewish American, Jewish Filipino, or Jewish even Jewish Israeli. Because Jewish is a nationality as well as a religion. I think that a Jew who adopts a different nationality  is beginning the process of assimilation.

Jews must be loyal to America or any other country they live in, however they must also not get too involved in its politics, including wars. If America or any other country doesn't like that, then its Jews should simply leave.

Zelhar,

I have said that what a Jew needs to know is in "Ethics of the Fathers". I have quoted the relevant portions:

1:10. Shmaayah and Avtalyon received from them. Shmaayah would say: Love work, loath mastery over others, and avoid intimacy with the government.

2:3.Be careful with the government, for they befriend a person only for their own needs. They appear to be friends when it is beneficial to them, but they do not stand by a person at the time of his distress.

3:2. Rabbi Chanina, deputy to the kohanim, would say: Pray for the integrity of the government; for were it not for the fear of its authority, a man would swallow his neighbor alive.

3:5. Rabbi Nechunia the son of Hakanah would say: One who accepts upon himself the yoke of Torah is exempted from the yoke of government duties and the yoke of worldly cares; but one who casts off the yoke of Torah is saddled with the yoke of government duties and the yoke of worldly cares.

As you can see the Sages had a feeling that governments are not to be trusted but they are required in order for the peace to be kept. A government should not be too cruel nor should it be too kind. Anyone who seeks holiness should avoid being involved with the government because politics is a dirty business spiritually.

Though not from Pirkie Avos, we learn that Hashem himself often removes the blessing of Free Will from world leaders. In Chumash the story of Pharoah relates that Hashem hardened his heart several times during the Plagues which destroyed his empire.

There is much good wisdom in Pirkie Avot. I have included another couple of pearls...

3:11. Rabbi Elazar of Modi'in would say: One who profanes the kodoshim ("holy things" consecrated for the service of G-d in the Holy Temple), degrades the Festivals, humiliates his friend in public, abrogates the covenant of our father Abraham (i.e., circumcision), or who interprets the Torah contrary to its true intent---although he may possess Torah knowledge and good deeds, he has no share in the World to Come.

6:1 Rabbi Meir would say: Whoever studies Torah for Torah's sake alone, merits many things; not only that, but [the creation of] the entire world is worthwhile for him alone. He is called friend, beloved, lover of G-d, lover of humanity, rejoicer of G-d, rejoicer of humanity. The Torah enclothes him with humility and awe; makes him fit to be righteous, pious, correct and faithful; distances him from sin and brings him close to merit. From him, people enjoy counsel and wisdom, understanding and power, as is stated (Proverbs 8:14): "Mine are counsel and wisdom, I am understanding, mine is power." The Torah grants him sovereignty, dominion, and jurisprudence. The Torah's secrets are revealed to him, and he becomes as an ever-increasing wellspring and as an unceasing river. He becomes modest, patient and forgiving of insults. The Torah uplifts him and makes him greater than all creations.

Good Afternoon,

muman613

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

horselady, this thread is grotesque. We do not answer Nazi scum who make anti-Semitic allegations. If not for the Jews, America would not be a superpower. The Jews invented America's nuclear weapons, and the Jews also invented most of America's other great technology without which America would not be a major military power.

Your obnoxious Nazi terminology is getting on my nerves: "America first", "Israel first" - this is the language the Nazis use. The "America First" movement were open supporters of Hitler in the 1930s. The Nazis of today like Pat Buchanan and David Duke accuse the Jews of putting "Israel first". You use the same exact terminology and make the same exact Hitlerite allegations.

If you are not a Nazi troll, then you are a self-hating Jew.

I am neither a troll nor a self-hating Jew. The only Jews I hate are liberal Jews. You don't have to tell me the good Jews
have done for this country. But I get a little sick of hearing about how Jews are too good to serve in our military.

Who said Jews are "too good to serve in the military" other than neo-nazis and antisemites?

Secondly, MOST Jews in this country are INTERMARRYING, and so there won't be many Jews left for you to criticize and hate.   It is a terrible tragedy the spiritual holocaust being experienced in the USA, but Jewish values are eroded and Jewish religion was destroyed by reformism.    And the religious Orthodox Jews that will be left in a generation or two, who will make up the majority of USA Jews will likely sooner make aliyah and serve in an Israeli army than volunteer for American because no one OWES it to America to serve in the army.  It's optional.  And the Jewish religious belief puts a big focus on making aliyah, not sticking around in gentile countries.   But don't for a second think that Jews aren't appreciative of America being relatively benign to the Jewish presence in the country unlike countless other brutal hateful repressive regimes throughout history. 

[horselady]

American aid to Israel has been a poison because the U.S. government seeks to undermine Israeli strength in order to appease the oil-soaked Muslims.

 I agree that it is harmful, yet necessary, but not for the reasons you mention. Israel is a close ally while the Arab nations are not.
It's too bad the Dems won't allow us to develop our own resources, that's where the blame for appeasing Muslims lies.

[AsheDina]

The charge of dual loyalty is anti-Semitic. The talk about "Israel firsters" is anti-Semitic.

Jews do not belong in America or any other country outside of Israel. Jews should not be politicians in America or soldiers or anything else. The fact that horselady DEMANDS that Jews serve in the American military, and calls Jews who don't serve "hypocrites" is also anti-Semitic. No loyal Jew would make statements like this.

Horselady says she responds to Nazis who single out Jews for supposedly not serving in the military by saying that Jews don't serve because they're liberals. What a brilliant response! You agree with the Nazi charge about Jews not serving, and you then add that Jews are anti-military liberals - are you trying to recruit for StørmFrønt with "great" arguments like this?

Aren't you the same person who opened a thread saying that you are anti-Semitic? That's also a brilliant argument: "I'm Jewish and even I'm anti-Semitic."

This is sick beyond belief.

  Lets be Ladies and Gentlemen here... the Horse wants to STAY on TOPIC, b/c she is now the "Self-Proclaimed Topic Chief."

  This is what Chaim ben Pesach, NATIONAL Chairman of the JTF says about the Horse:

  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The charge of dual loyalty is anti-Semitic. The talk about "Israel firsters" is anti-Semitic.

Jews do not belong in America or any other country outside of Israel. Jews should not be politicians in America or soldiers or anything else. The fact that horselady DEMANDS that Jews serve in the American military, and calls Jews who don't serve "hypocrites" is also anti-Semitic. No loyal Jew would make statements like this.

Horselady says she responds to Nazis who single out Jews for supposedly not serving in the military by saying that Jews don't serve because they're liberals. What a brilliant response! You agree with the Nazi charge about Jews not serving, and you then add that Jews are anti-military liberals - are you trying to recruit for StørmFrønt with "great" arguments like this?

Aren't you the same person who opened a thread saying that you are anti-Semitic? That's also a brilliant argument: "I'm Jewish and even I'm anti-Semitic."

This is sick beyond belief.
*****

 So, lets STAY on topic for the 'Grand Mufti of the Topic Bearers'... the HORSElady.

[Zelhar]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

[horselady]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

You don't think patriotism is a good reason?

I see.

[AsheDina]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

You don't think patriotism is a good reason?

I see.

 

ZELHAR IS PATRIOTIC, HE LIVES IN ISRAEL.




  STOP BEING A 'HORSES' ARSE!

 

[horselady]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

You don't think patriotism is a good reason?

I see.

 

ZELHAR IS PATRIOTIC, HE LIVES IN ISRAEL.




  STOP BEING A 'HORSES' ARSE!

I believe my question was directed at Zelhar.

There you go, shouting again.
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

You don't think patriotism is a good reason?

I see.

I'm sure the Soviet Jews were told to be "patriotic" too....
NO ONE OWES MILITARY SERVICE to the USA.   If they institute a mandatory draft, that's a different story.  Then the people who don't want to serve can leave.   Until then, you have no argument.   Stop accusing Jews.

[Zelhar]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

You don't think patriotism is a good reason?

I see.

I am not even sure if patriotism is a good reason in Israel. Soldiers are always being pawned by politicians, who exploit the fact that soldiers must put aside their ideology and follow orders mindlessly.

Anyway, my view is that a Jew shouldn't be an patriotic American; loyal, law abiding for sure, but not patriotic because it is not his country, he/she is just a resident there.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There is a problem of how to define "patriotic."   A Jew can live in America and believe that the nation is full of good people and founded on a good system by righteous gentiles.  But we are not supposed to feel that we are "American of the mosaic faith."  This destroys the meaning of Judaism.  We are Jews.   And no horselady can force anybody to shed their identity.    But unfortunately it's happening on its own....

Patriotism is often used as an excuse to betray a person's own morality.   Which IDF soldier is more patriotic?   The one who refused to follow the immoral order to expel Jews and was thrown in jail for disobeying orders, or the soldier who carried out this evil act under the guise of "following orders" and "loyalty to the govt."     It will depend on your definition of patriotism.   But the first soldier (who disobeyed with the order that was against his conscience and morality) is the righteous one.

[AsheDina]

Muman, thanks for bringing up Pirkey Avot, there is so much wisdom in Chazal's words.

I forgot to mention that IMO Americans Jews can serve in the army if they chose to do so, but not for patriotic (American) reasons but rather as a career, or in times of emergency where their service is required to protect the life and freedom of themselves or of Jews elsewhere.

You don't think patriotism is a good reason?

I see.

I am not even sure if patriotism is a good reason in Israel. Soldiers are always being pawned by politicians, who exploit the fact that soldiers must put aside their ideology and follow orders mindlessly.

Anyway, my view is that a Jew shouldn't be an patriotic American; loyal, law abiding for sure, but not patriotic because it is not his country, he/she is just a resident there.

 Patriotism is having Love for your country. The young men nowadays dont even know WHAT that is.  In the Military now, it is NOT like the Old time Military and Drill- AT ALL. That they have even had many return to the USA after Iraq and Afghanstan is nothing short of a miracle. the Fem movement is in the Military FULL FORCE. there is NO more: DROP & GIVE ME 50. At this point, UNLESS they change the Military BACK to the way it was- we now have NO business being in a complete and total hostile land, that Our Soldiers are not even trained PROPERLY for.  The REASON FOR the Military is to PROTECT this nation (USA) from Enemies, to fight and WIN wars. If they do NOT train them to fight MORE vicious, UNFORTUNATELY, we will see mangled bodies coming back from Wars.   At this point, they are BETTER OFF going to be Minutemen at the Border- with REAL men, because the SGT MJR in the US Military is a kiss butt to Political powers, and THAT is EXACTLY how they get that rank now.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Chaim, I still am in favor of giving her the benefit of the doubt. I still get the vibe that she spoke naively, and has a conclusion that we would disagree with (that Jews must serve in the military), but nothing more. True--I could be wrong, and I certainly think we should watch her, but we both know I and others have said many careless things on this forum that have been misconstrued.

[AsheDina]

Chaim, I still am in favor of giving her the benefit of the doubt. I still get the vibe that she spoke naively, and has a conclusion that we would disagree with (that Jews must serve in the military), but nothing more. True--I could be wrong, and I certainly think we should watch her, but we both know I and others have said many careless things on this forum that have been misconstrued.

 Well watch all you want, I have seen ENOUGH, and it is what I see everyday on my email thread- SAME articles that neo-nazis email me EVERY DAY that she USES, SAME Military garbage as well, same 'jewsagainstzionism'- bla bla bla. She also said that she was on a nazi forum, and she is a JEW? I DONT THINK SO.  I have every reason to suspect this behavior. It is EXACTLY as Massuh says: NO friend of the Jews posts things like THIS.
TNO= Trust No One

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Maybe you are right.

[Americanhero1]

Wait she was a Troll?

[JTFFan]

Wait she was a Troll?

Yes, could be there's a good chance that could be true.

[Americanhero1]

Wait she was a Troll?

Yes, could be there's a good chance that could be true.

Wow i have missed a lot of stuff not being on the forum in a while

[Muck DeFuslims]

I don't see any evidence that horselady is a nazi or a troll.

She's openly said that she's an American first and a Jew second.

While I don't agree with Jews who feel this way, that hardly makes her a nazi.

I think she's being treated unfairly and way too harshly.