How important is going to Temple to you?

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

Every week including the holidays

[q_q_]

"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."

   Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.

how is your personal opinion/preference relevant to whatever the facts are?
(rhetorical question. They aren't relevant)

   Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.

With sentences like that, it's crazy that people take the burden of responding.  It looks like you're talking to yourself, having a really stupid conversation. And you've just presented a snip of it because you thought the world would benefit.


Muman thought you meant that you think being shomer shabbat is stuck up.

I can see that's not what you meant.   You probably meant that it's stuck up to do what that "Answer:" said.

There is actually an important issue, and an interesting thing here, aside from your thoughts. 

The fact is that Halacha is what it is.It's not done for personal preferences.

So if a strictly kosher keeping (particularly a baal teshuva) person doesn't eat at somebody elses' e.g. stranger or in the case of a baal teshuva, often his friend or parents home.  Then it's not because he is stuck up.  It's not his personal preferences. But jewish law is what it is.
The other person might be offended, and complain that the religious person is "Holier than thou".  And that that "they"(the normals, the less religious) are now not jewish enough for them(the now frummers).  "We are not kosher enough for you?"


note- I have heard stories.  In the kosher case, even if the baal teshuva accepts the invitation and eats but brings in paper plates, plastic or his own cutlery and his own food. It can be considered as an insult by the host.
Really, if they complain, it's the host that is not accomodating the baal teshuva. The BT has accepted to sit with them and eat at the table with them.

The interesting thing is that goyim are more respectful about this than half religious jews are!

[takebackourtemple]

Wow takebackourtemple,
You think being Shomer Shabbos is being stuck up?

That is not what I think. What I think is that not including valid Jews as part of the Minyan because they are not perfect is stuck up.

[takebackourtemple]

   Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.

how is your personal opinion/preference relevant to whatever the facts are?
(rhetorical question. They aren't relevant)

The fact is that regardless of if a Jew keeps Shomer Shabbat or not, he is born to a Jewish mother and she is Jewish regardless of if she keeps the Shabbat or properly educates her children. If someone rejects the minyan, even if they say prayers, they are not saying them truthfully.

[q_q_]

The fact is that regardless of if a Jew keeps Shomer Shabbat or not, he is born to a Jewish mother and she is Jewish regardless of if she keeps the Shabbat or properly educates her children.

the expression is "is shomer shabbat" not "keeps"

If someone rejects the minyan, even if they say prayers, they are not saying them truthfully.

you made this pointless assumption ages ago, you didn't even notice it was an assumption. The assumption that the person that doesn't accept the minyan would still daven with the minyan.

on a related note.
there is a prayer format for when you have a minyan, and a prayer format for when you don't.  In jewish schools, some school years would have boys pre barmitzva, so, doing the latter format.

if you wanted to look at it logically, given your pointless assumption, then you might ask what sin it is to do the wrong prayer format.

What you write about praying untruthfully is just mindless nonsense. Another case where perhaps it's good you didn't bother to elaborate.  I wouldn't make assumptions about the person's reasons. But there is that technical halachic reason. And there is a psychological problem with - to ridicule it - 'davening with people that you don't accept'. More correctly, it's davening with people that think there is a minyan, when one thinks there isn't. The whole situation is your invention of course.

And your quoting of yourself and of me was not that clear
If you write  <quote author="q_q_"> or <quote author="takebackourtemple"> instead of <quote>, then it is clearer.  Changing <> to []  of course.

note- I hadn't heard about this shomer shabbat minyan issue mentioned by Tzvi, which you take offence to. It wouldn't suprise me if it was the case. And as with anything in halacha, it's not peoples' personal preference so not something one shoudl take offence to. You sign up for orthodox judaism, you can't really disagree with the rules. You might break some due to personal weaknesses. But your mentality of potentially taking offence to them, is just wrong.

[muman613]

That is not what I think. What I think is that not including valid Jews as part of the Minyan because they are not perfect is stuck up.

takebackourtemple,

I will not argue about who is stuck up or not. The issue is simply one of halacha. Most of the time the minyans which I attend on Shabbat usually provide lodging for those who attend so they dont have to break any melachot. Also friends of mine who would have Shabbatons at their house would usually have extra matresses and beds for people to sleep over so that they dont have to drive. If you could find such a good minyan which does what it can to prevent people from violating the Shabbat.

Shabbat is truly a treasure which has kept the Jewish people alive all these millenia. Proper observance of this Holy Day is very important for the spiritual and physical well being of the Jewish people. Much has been written of the importance of each of the halachas of Shabbat. I dont presume to know more than the great sages of ours and even though I am not perfect, I strive for better observance.

A proper attitude is to try to learn from people who are more observant and understand the meanings of refraining from all creative work. May your Shabbats be more precious.

muman613