Author Topic: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime  (Read 10537 times)

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Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« on: August 20, 2008, 01:52:46 PM »
       
Written by Rav Bar-Hayim     

Breakdown of the Halakhic System:  Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime 

Has Orthodox Judaism  become politically correct in determining how to deal with the enemies of Israel and the Jewish people?  The answers to many modern problems we have in the Jewish State can be quite obvious even to the average man on the street.  Why can't our Rabbis and Leaders follow common sense and or Torah as the case applies?  How can some of our Rabbis abandon their common sense even when backed by clear direction from the Torah?

Breakdown of the Halakhic System:  Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime, Part 1

One /right-wing/ rabbinic scholar claims we can’t decide whether bombing civilian areas is moral, so we should abide by international standards.

Breakdown of the Halakhic System:  Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime, Part 2

A recipe for stopping terror from Gaza.  Does the Torah permit it?

You will  find these and many other interesting and informative shiurim in our section of Audio recordings on Halacha.  Just click on this link to Audio Shiurim on Halacka to browse the selcetion.
 
http://machonshilo.org/content/view/99/1/lang,english/
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 03:31:41 PM »
I had listened to part 1 and it was excellent....  Don't have time to summarize and maybe I couldn't do it justice-  it is definitely worth listening to..

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 06:44:53 PM »
       
Written by Rav Bar-Hayim     

Breakdown of the Halakhic System:  Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime 

Has Orthodox Judaism  become politically correct in determining how to deal with the enemies of Israel and the Jewish people?  The answers to many modern problems we have in the Jewish State can be quite obvious even to the average man on the street.  Why can't our Rabbis and Leaders follow common sense and or Torah as the case applies?  How can some of our Rabbis abandon their common sense even when backed by clear direction from the Torah?

Breakdown of the Halakhic System:  Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime, Part 1

One /right-wing/ rabbinic scholar claims we can’t decide whether bombing civilian areas is moral, so we should abide by international standards.

Breakdown of the Halakhic System:  Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime, Part 2

A recipe for stopping terror from Gaza.  Does the Torah permit it?

You will  find these and many other interesting and informative shiurim in our section of Audio recordings on Halacha.  Just click on this link to Audio Shiurim on Halacka to browse the selcetion.
 
http://machonshilo.org/content/view/99/1/lang,english/

Shalom, I was not able to hear the audio however I would like to give my opinion regarding targeting civilian areas during wartime.
If the Muslims harbor terrorists in their homes, I feel as though the civilians are fair game or casualties of war.
Muslim terrorists rely on the civilians for protection. Muslim terrorists take it to the bank that they are safe and we will not harm the civilians
due to ( political pressure) from the Left. Hashem expect us to use our common sense and intelligence when fighting evil. I do believe that
Hashem will forgive us because he knows that the evil we are fighting will include killing civilians, and that we have no choice in the matter.
Muslim civilians have 2 choices. Fight the radicals that have ' supposedly' hijacked their religion' or die with them. We should bear no guilt
for killing civilians due to the fact we were left with no other choice to defeat terrorists.
P.S. The absolute truth is this: If civilians die the Muslim terrorists are to blame. Place the blame where it deserves to be placed.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 06:50:06 PM by republicandox »

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 07:32:31 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline muman613

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 08:06:41 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 08:29:12 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


Tziv and Muman, both of you are correct too, especially Muman's point about 2 terrorists and 200 innocent civilians...it is indeed a ethical dilema. I want to defeat terrorism but the idea of innocents being killed is hard to think about for most people. Islam is evil and that we all agree on!
I still stand by my point regarding who's to blame....the Muslims are to blame for the innocent civilians dying. Some people may consider me a war monger, but this is not true. I don't like war at all, but I realize that in order to exist and have Peace, war is necessary. We must defeat evil.


                                                                            Shalom from Dox     
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 08:31:43 PM by republicandox »

Offline Shamgar

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 08:34:33 PM »
I believe that in the Tanach there was a time when God instructed that all men, women, children and animals be destroyed, turning over every stone and salting the earth.

That is what it will take to destroy Islam.
Infidels fighting Obamazombies and Islamazombies in the wastelands of the former United States.

"I will stand with the Blue Line should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 08:56:13 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


 No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 09:13:55 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


 No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).

We must win this war at any cost...Islam is a Snake that is swallowing our World and we must cut it's head off! Civilians will die and we cannot do anything for them due to their connections to Islam and terrorists. That is why I feel we will not be blamed by G-d. The death of civilians was not our faults. The Muslims killed them by using them as shields in the first place. It is sad to see innocent people suffer and die but if this war is not won and the Muslims take over...this World will be one giant blood bath.

                                                                                     
P.S. May G-d bless the United States of America and L' Chaim Yisrael !!!   

                                                                                     Shalom from Dox 

Offline Zionistforever

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 09:43:03 PM »
to be honest if you are harboring the enemy u are the enemy. by letting them stay in your home you are supporting the terrorists, targeting civilian areas where it is said there are many terrorists are all military causualties .
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 11:02:48 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


You might like the shiur.  Rav Bar Chaim takes a different approach.

Offline Zionistforever

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 12:56:38 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


You might like the shiur.  Rav Bar Chaim takes a different approach.

how many people are aware that there are terrorists in the building, how many have supplied them with shelter, and food.
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Offline t_h_j

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 10:50:49 PM »
I believe that in The Tanach there was a time when G-d instructed that all men, women, children and animals be destroyed, turning over every stone and salting the earth.

That is what it will take to destroy Islam.

extermination?

Offline Shamgar

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 10:55:16 PM »
Works for me.
Infidels fighting Obamazombies and Islamazombies in the wastelands of the former United States.

"I will stand with the Blue Line should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 11:07:36 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


 No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).

We must win this war at any cost...Islam is a Snake that is swallowing our World and we must cut it's head off! Civilians will die and we cannot do anything for them due to their connections to Islam and terrorists. That is why I feel we will not be blamed by G-d. The death of civilians was not our faults. The Muslims killed them by using them as shields in the first place. It is sad to see innocent people suffer and die but if this war is not won and the Muslims take over...this World will be one giant blood bath.

                                                                                     
P.S. May G-d bless the United States of America and L' Chaim Yisrael !!!   

                                                                                     Shalom from Dox 


Brilliant comparison. I say that Islam is more like an aggressive cancer, however. In order to kill the cancerous cells you must also kill harmless cells. There is always danger that the harmless cells can mutate. Gotta do what you gotta to protect yourself.

Offline muman613

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2008, 12:58:59 AM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


 No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).

We must win this war at any cost...Islam is a Snake that is swallowing our World and we must cut it's head off! Civilians will die and we cannot do anything for them due to their connections to Islam and terrorists. That is why I feel we will not be blamed by G-d. The death of civilians was not our faults. The Muslims killed them by using them as shields in the first place. It is sad to see innocent people suffer and die but if this war is not won and the Muslims take over...this World will be one giant blood bath.

                                                                                     
P.S. May G-d bless the United States of America and L' Chaim Yisrael !!!   

                                                                                     Shalom from Dox 


Brilliant comparison. I say that Islam is more like an aggressive cancer, however. In order to kill the cancerous cells you must also kill harmless cells. There is always danger that the harmless cells can mutate. Gotta do what you gotta to protect yourself.

There is a limit as to how many innocents you can kill before it is considered murder. As I have said repeatedly, I am 100% for eradicating the terrorist enemy. As a victim of terror I will never lie down and wait for them to kill me, as they have already killed my brother. I want justice against the murderer who took my innocent brother and dragged him and his memory into this hellhole of politics and geopolitical warfare. But just as much as my anger rages against the wicked, I also am inclined to believe Torahs precept that ALL LIFE is sacred and has a spark of Hashem in it. I do not even for a second contemplate flying a plane into a building full of non-threatening arabs. Nor do I even entertain a thought about driving a bulldozer into a crowd of innocent arabs in the middle of the day. I dont dream about going into a Islamic school and shooting the students. I think I know why these thoughts dont plague me. This is because Judaism is not a religion of vengeance. Hashem brings about everything in the world, our strengths and our weaknesses. Islam is a threat because we have let it happen. If we, the Jews, were more concerned about keeping Hashems word, his covenant to us, then our stature in the world would be much different.

I want to see the destruction of the wicked in this world. And when Hashem commands that we obliterate Amaleks memory from this world, I take it seriously. But truthfully I dont believe that these Arabs are Amalek. I have more fear from the Persians in Iraq getting Nuclear weapons. If the Jews who are supposed to be in control in Hollywood and Washington really were Jews they would be affecting public opinion in Israels favor. Instead just about every mainstream media in existance today is anti-Israel in its bias. I have written numerous publications to complain about this and several have actually called me and allowed me to vent to them how wrong it is.

So I understand the desire to kill them all and let Hashem sort them out. It is good when it is time to act. But I have to have mercy on the innocents who may not be in control of their circumstances. When a valuable target in known to be in a location then I see that maybe it is worth it, but it is a very difficult call.

muman613
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2008, 01:18:50 PM »
"This is because Judaism is not a religion of vengeance."

 That's where you are wrong. You, like most Jews (im talking about Religious), see everyone as having this great value. Vengence,when appropriate is a great thing. G-d's name is associated with vengence, also vengence is a form of Kiddush Hashe-m. You should learn Or'Harayon, the chapter called "Revenge".
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2008, 02:36:23 PM »
Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
 
  What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.

Tzvi,

I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.

Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.

muman613


 No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).

We must win this war at any cost...Islam is a Snake that is swallowing our World and we must cut it's head off! Civilians will die and we cannot do anything for them due to their connections to Islam and terrorists. That is why I feel we will not be blamed by G-d. The death of civilians was not our faults. The Muslims killed them by using them as shields in the first place. It is sad to see innocent people suffer and die but if this war is not won and the Muslims take over...this World will be one giant blood bath.

                                                                                     
P.S. May G-d bless the United States of America and L' Chaim Yisrael !!!   

                                                                                     Shalom from Dox 


Brilliant comparison. I say that Islam is more like an aggressive cancer, however. In order to kill the cancerous cells you must also kill harmless cells. There is always danger that the harmless cells can mutate. Gotta do what you gotta to protect yourself.

There is a limit as to how many innocents you can kill before it is considered murder. As I have said repeatedly, I am 100% for eradicating the terrorist enemy. As a victim of terror I will never lie down and wait for them to kill me, as they have already killed my brother. I want justice against the murderer who took my innocent brother and dragged him and his memory into this hellhole of politics and geopolitical warfare. But just as much as my anger rages against the wicked, I also am inclined to believe Torahs precept that ALL LIFE is sacred and has a spark of Hashem in it. I do not even for a second contemplate flying a plane into a building full of non-threatening arabs. Nor do I even entertain a thought about driving a bulldozer into a crowd of innocent arabs in the middle of the day. I dont dream about going into a Islamic school and shooting the students. I think I know why these thoughts dont plague me. This is because Judaism is not a religion of vengeance. Hashem brings about everything in the world, our strengths and our weaknesses. Islam is a threat because we have let it happen. If we, the Jews, were more concerned about keeping Hashems word, his covenant to us, then our stature in the world would be much different.

I want to see the destruction of the wicked in this world. And when Hashem commands that we obliterate Amaleks memory from this world, I take it seriously. But truthfully I dont believe that these Arabs are Amalek. I have more fear from the Persians in Iraq getting Nuclear weapons. If the Jews who are supposed to be in control in Hollywood and Washington really were Jews they would be affecting public opinion in Israels favor. Instead just about every mainstream media in existance today is anti-Israel in its bias. I have written numerous publications to complain about this and several have actually called me and allowed me to vent to them how wrong it is.

So I understand the desire to kill them all and let Hashem sort them out. It is good when it is time to act. But I have to have mercy on the innocents who may not be in control of their circumstances. When a valuable target in known to be in a location then I see that maybe it is worth it, but it is a very difficult call.

muman613


Shalom Muman, I understand what you are saying regarding all life is precious. I don't disagree with that but what I have trouble with is this: How could it be our fault if civilians die as a result of the enemy using them as shields? I would assume that G-d will blame the enemy who put the innocents in harms way. The enemy is relying on this tactic of ( guilt ) to defeat us. If we do not kill the enemy hiding in civilian areas, then this means the enemy has won and will be encouraged to do this further. I think the question is this: Do we place ourselves in more danger by saving the innocent civilians? Will we lose more innocent lives because we wanted to save a few innocents civilians? This is a catch 22 situation morally speaking. Personally if civilians died  from our fire, I don't see how G-d could blame us if we were left with no choice. I feel if the enemy wins, more innocents will die and that is what we are trying to prevent in the first place.


                                                                                          Shalom from Dox
P.S. Have a Good Shabbos !!!

Offline muman613

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2008, 03:26:56 PM »
Shalom Dox,

Yes, I am fully with you on this... My point is that we must be sure that we are actively getting the enemy. I agree that we are not guilty when they use their own people as human shields. They are the ones guilty of putting their own people in the middle of the conflict. I do not feel sorry about that and know that Hashem wants us to do what we can to protect ourselves, our families, and our nation. We are in agreement.

But it is important to remain human and not allow anger to be the trigger which unleashes death on everyone we dislike. We dont want to become like our enemies where life is denigrated to nothing. Moral compass is something which must not get lost.

Shalom and have a very good Shabbat,

muman613
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 03:42:32 PM »
Infinity Arabs do not equal the life of one Jew. If the only way to protect one, single Jew - - - let alone thousands and millions - - - is by total genocide, is it not logical to do so? If you're allowed to do anything to protect yourself, is there a limit to how many people you can kill? If the only choice you have is to kill them before they kill you, your family, and your loved ones, are you really going to contemplate otherwise? JTF has been warning for years that this is a war, it will get only worse, and I don't want to risk our lives for the chance that maybe they are innocent. There are no guarantees in life. You don't see parents tell their kids to not look both ways when you cross a street, to talk to strangers, or to open the dooor without asking. Sometimes it's okay to do otherwise. But are you really going to risk it? Are you really going to take a chance and ha faith in these "people"? If those Arabs that we kill are truly "harmless" then Hashem will put them in a better place. But I'm not going to entertain the possibility that they aren't dangerous because of a) history b) Jewish Law c) take a look at the world. Maybe I just love my fellow Jews too way much. Or maybe I just understand the truth about war, self-defense, and Islam.

Offline muman613

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 05:17:33 PM »
Infinity Arabs do not equal the life of one Jew. If the only way to protect one, single Jew - - - let alone thousands and millions - - - is by total genocide, is it not logical to do so? If you're allowed to do anything to protect yourself, is there a limit to how many people you can kill? If the only choice you have is to kill them before they kill you, your family, and your loved ones, are you really going to contemplate otherwise? JTF has been warning for years that this is a war, it will get only worse, and I don't want to risk our lives for the chance that maybe they are innocent. There are no guarantees in life. You don't see parents tell their kids to not look both ways when you cross a street, to talk to strangers, or to open the dooor without asking. Sometimes it's okay to do otherwise. But are you really going to risk it? Are you really going to take a chance and ha faith in these "people"? If those Arabs that we kill are truly "harmless" then Hashem will put them in a better place. But I'm not going to entertain the possibility that they aren't dangerous because of a) history b) Jewish Law c) take a look at the world. Maybe I just love my fellow Jews too way much. Or maybe I just understand the truth about war, self-defense, and Islam.

Mo1988,

It is admirable you have so much zeal but as you grow older you will realize that we cannot just kill all those who we dont like. We have a right, and a mitzvah to protect ourselves and our children and our generation from enemies. But who are you, or who am I, to be the final judge and jury on people? There is a fine line between killing in anger and killing because we have to. Nowhere in Torah are we commanded to kill everyone. This is one of the biggest differences between Judaism and Islam. Islamists think they have a commandment to kill the non-believer. Judaism doesnt have such a desire. We are different from our enemies in that we value life.

I work with people from all different backgrounds. I work with people from Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, China, Japan, Korea, Russia, and all points between. I cannot go around thinking they are all going to kill me. And I am very, very Jewish in my appearance and they know that I am Jewish and I listen to Israel Radio in the lunch room. I dont hate them in the least and I am treated respectfully by them. People are basically good, in my experience. Our sages told us not to make Hate and Anger into idols and I live by this.

I know who my enemies are, and they are not every arab in the street. While it is true that Islam is a virus and needs to be crushed, it is not accomplished by resorting to the tactics our enemies use. We must be strong, destroy our enemies, and maintain our position in Israel. We cannot show weakness and retreat. I will say again that in most cases, here in America, people are for the most part good. I have never seen any acts of antisemitism before my eyes.

By the way mo1988, please back up your assertion about the value of Jewish life with at least some scriptural source. I dont know where in Torah it says that Arab lives are worth nothing. Look at the story of Ishmael in Bereshit. Avraham had just sent Hagar and her young, sick child Ishmael from the house. They wandered in the desert and Ishmael was very, very sick. Hashem could have let him die in the desert and yet, even though Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arabs, Hashem let him live. The angels were very confused by this and asked Hashem why. Hashem said that Ishmael would be judged for where he is now, not what he is responsible for in the future. This is very interesting when you study the Torah.

You are certainly on the right track but your zealousness may not result in much change, IMHO.

muman613

Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/246646/jewish/Isaac-Ishmael.htm

Ishmael

As we know, Isaac was not Abraham’s first born, for Hagar had borne him Ishmael thirteen years earlier. But Ishmael had not grown up as his father had hoped. He was inclined towards many things Abraham considered wicked. Ishmael even prayed to idols when he believed himself unobserved.

Sarah observed him and realized that he would have a bad influence upon the young Isaac. She therefore implored Abraham to send Ishmael away. Abraham understood the motive of his wife’s request, but he feared to send his son away to a place where he might become even worse. However, G-d told Abraham to do as Sarah had requested, and Abraham then sent Hagar and Ishmael away, providing them with water and food for the journey.

The Miraculous Well

Hagar and Ishmael lost their way in the wilderness of Beer Sheba and soon ran out of water. Hagar could not watch the boy’s suffering and put him in the shade of a bush, while she sat some distance away and cried. An angel then called to Hagar and assured her that G-d had seen the suffering of her boy. He would live and become the father of a mighty nation. And suddenly, Hagar saw a spring nearby.

Hagar and Ishmael were saved from death and continued their journey. G-d blessed the boy, for he was Abraham’s son. Ishmael grew up into a strong man. He lived on the outskirts of the desert and became a great archer. Ishmael lived his life in his own way. He married and had many children. His children multiplied and became known under the name of Ishmaelites, or Arabs, the people of the desert.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 05:43:26 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 05:22:04 PM »
Infinity Arabs do not equal the life of one Jew. If the only way to protect one, single Jew - - - let alone thousands and millions - - - is by total genocide, is it not logical to do so? If you're allowed to do anything to protect yourself, is there a limit to how many people you can kill? If the only choice you have is to kill them before they kill you, your family, and your loved ones, are you really going to contemplate otherwise? JTF has been warning for years that this is a war, it will get only worse, and I don't want to risk our lives for the chance that maybe they are innocent. There are no guarantees in life. You don't see parents tell their kids to not look both ways when you cross a street, to talk to strangers, or to open the dooor without asking. Sometimes it's okay to do otherwise. But are you really going to risk it? Are you really going to take a chance and ha faith in these "people"? If those Arabs that we kill are truly "harmless" then Hashem will put them in a better place. But I'm not going to entertain the possibility that they aren't dangerous because of a) history b) Jewish Law c) take a look at the world. Maybe I just love my fellow Jews too way much. Or maybe I just understand the truth about war, self-defense, and Islam.

Shalom Mo1988, Muman is in full agreement with us on this issue, but he is only trying to point out that killing civilians should be avoided if possible, and our troops and the Israelis soldiers do go out of their way not to target civilians, sometimes they get killed and then we are not to blame after all precautions have been taken. 

                                                                                           Dox

Offline Americanhero1

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 05:23:35 PM »
collateral damage

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 05:38:57 PM »
I'm not arguing with Muman, I respect everybody's opinions. As a matter of fact I was trying to initiate the concept of " Two planes crash. Which is worse? The one with anybody you know." Human nature has it that we generally care about those close to us more than strangers. G-d knows the value of lives, but we as humans appreciate lives differently. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't appreciate others as much as I appreciate my own family and friends because I don't know them. And "Kol Yisrael Achim" all Jews are family. And if arabs are going to strap bombs onto their own kids what appreciation do they have for life? I'm suggesting a last resort. If all else fails, what is their to do? Clearly doing what Israel is doing now isn't really solving any problems. Deseperate times call for deseparate measures. Tanach says it'll come down to Gog and Magog, right? What are we waiting for? How many more of us have to die while trying not to use the enemy's tactics against them? I appreciate the guidance you guys are giving me. I don't mean to offend anyone, Chas V'shalom, but if I can't vent here, where can I vent?

Offline muman613

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Re: Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 05:44:30 PM »
I'm not arguing with Muman, I respect everybody's opinions. As a matter of fact I was trying to initiate the concept of " Two planes crash. Which is worse? The one with anybody you know." Human nature has it that we generally care about those close to us more than strangers. G-d knows the value of lives, but we as humans appreciate lives differently. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't appreciate others as much as I appreciate my own family and friends because I don't know them. And "Kol Yisrael Achim" all Jews are family. And if arabs are going to strap bombs onto their own kids what appreciation do they have for life? I'm suggesting a last resort. If all else fails, what is their to do? Clearly doing what Israel is doing now isn't really solving any problems. Deseperate times call for deseparate measures. Tanach says it'll come down to Gog and Magog, right? What are we waiting for? How many more of us have to die while trying not to use the enemy's tactics against them? I appreciate the guidance you guys are giving me. I don't mean to offend anyone, Chas V'shalom, but if I can't vent here, where can I vent?
Yes Mo1988,

When the battle has begun we will know. I dont know if this is Gog v Magog yet. If anything the prophecy seems to indicate the Persians and not the Arabs.

muman613

PS: BTW I am a voice of moderation. I am sure there are more people who agree with you than disagree. I seem to err on the side of mercy, as I said in my Favorite Torah personality my favorite is Abraham.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14