Paying women to have tubes tied.

[takebackourtemple]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/25/tubal.ligations.for.poor.cnn

[takebackourtemple]

This guy is State Rep. John LaBruzzo. Wow. He is good.

[Rubystars]

This is eugenics, I don't like it. Sterilizing undesirables isn't exactly associated with good people.

I wouldn't mind if they were temporarily asked to use some form of birth control to increase their benefits though while on welfare.

[Lisa]

I don't see a problem if there's no coercion involved. 

With that being said, I this guy could have put forth much stronger arguments.  He should have emphasized that this is completely voluntary.  And when the ditzy reporter kept bringing up education, and outreach in the community, he should have reminded her that we already pump billions into the bolshevik public schools, with the kids being no smarter for it. 

[Rubystars]

Ok imagine this, you're desperately poor and don't really plan on having kids, so you take the money and get the operation. Several years down the road you're in a better financial situation and get married and are unable to have kids because of a desperate step you took when you were younger. It might not be direct coercion but it does seem coercive.

[Lisa]

You have a point there Rubystars. 

This who issue of poor women getting their tubes tied would be moot if we had better welfare laws. 

As things are now, women are rewarded with more welfare $ every time they pop out a new child.  Many of these selfish slut mothers care nothing for these children.  I've seen how they treat their kids, and it's terrible.  But in a way, these women use the kids as a sort of "human shield." 

Any efforts to reform this broken system are met with howls of outrage, like "how can you deprive the children?"

I think ultimately, the support for these children should be paid for by charitable/religious institutions.

[Rubystars]

I agree that private charity should pick up more of the slack. Also one more thing is that these types of operations can lead to an increased risk of tubal pregnancies, which make abortion necessary to save the woman's life. they don't prevent all pregnancies, just pregnancies in the uterus. Ectopic pregnancies are very dangerous and can kill a woman and of course the baby dies.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I am 100% for this proposal and think Bush should decree it by executive order right now. It should be expanded to include vasectomies too. Not only do I think our nation is overpopulated and spends too much on childrens' services *cough*services for affirmative action and illegal alien kids*cough*, but the fact is that a LOT of women become pregnant without having really thought through the consequences and lifelong ramifications.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree that private charity should pick up more of the slack. Also one more thing is that these types of operations can lead to an increased risk of tubal pregnancies, which make abortion necessary to save the woman's life. they don't prevent all pregnancies, just pregnancies in the uterus. Ectopic pregnancies are very dangerous and can kill a woman and of course the baby dies.

What do you think of Essure, Ruby?

[Lubab]

I am 100% for this proposal and think Bush should decree it by executive order right now. It should be expanded to include vasectomies too. Not only do I think our nation is overpopulated and spends too much on childrens' services *cough*services for affirmative action and illegal alien kids*cough*, but the fact is that a LOT of women become pregnant without having really thought through the consequences and lifelong ramifications.

Disagree. The notion that the world is "overpopulated" is myth just like global warming. Our earth can handle far more people than it has now if only the governments around the world would allow private parties to plant more.

The food shortages people worry about are man's doing. G-d has no shortage of weather, or food for every person alive and every person who ever lived all at the same time.

[Lubab]

Planned Parenthood is with you on this one C.F. It is a euphemistic form of genocide. Read your Bible. Amram was punished for being even "worse than Pharoh" because he chose not to have children, which prevented both girls and boys from being bought into the world.

This plan is completely anti-Torah and anti-life. JTF should oppose it strongly.

[Lubab]

Further, as we have recently found out, the most vast misuse of government funds is NOT to the poor but to the extremely rich corps. like the ones that being criminally bailed out right now.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I'm talking about quality-of-life, not absolute carrying capacity. I like having pristine natural areas, open spaces, navigable freeways, a labor pool that isn't absolutely desperate for work, etc--not to mention basic goods that don't cost an arm and a leg because of intense demand and competition. Yeah, technically we COULD support a lot more people, but who really would want to live like people do in India or Hong Kong? California is way too crowded as it is, at least.

[Lisa]

I did a sure for Essure.  I don't like it. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Planned Parenthood is with you on this one C.F. It is a euphemistic form of genocide. Read your Bible. Amram was punished for being even "worse than Pharoh" because he chose not to have children, which prevented both girls and boys from being bought into the world.

This plan is completely anti-Torah and anti-life. JTF should oppose it strongly.

1: Planned Parenthood doesn't want voluntary sterilization--they want mass, government-subsidized infanticide.

2: I don't have to agree with every single thing Chaim supports, and he doesn't have to agree with everything that I do. Nobody here sees 100% eye-to-eye with JTF, not even Chaimfan. Chaim doesn't require total assent, either.

3: There was a specific time and context to that. The passage is talking about the survival of the Jewish people at the time of the Pharaoh's genocide. Amram did not want to bring children into a world of the Pharaoh's brutality--his sin was cowardice and caving-in to what Pharaoh wanted, not contraception in the modern sense.

[Shamgar]

Why do I have to have a license to own a gun, drive a car or run a business but nothing is required to have a child. Some people are just not meant to reproduce.

I don't like the fact that I have to pay to raise some one else's child against my will. Anyone can make it in this country. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I have never won or been given anything. I have always had to work long hard hours to enjoy the life I have. Much of it I attribute to God's blessing as well.

I have had to restart from scratch once in my life and sometime I have had to take a step or two backwards. You just have to work a bit harder.

You shouldn't have 5 kids if you can't afford to raise and educate them yourself.

[Lubab]

I'm talking about quality-of-life, not absolute carrying capacity. I like having pristine natural areas, open spaces, navigable freeways, a labor pool that isn't absolutely desperate for work, etc--not to mention basic goods that don't cost an arm and a leg because of intense demand and competition. Yeah, technically we COULD support a lot more people, but who really would want to live like people do in India or Hong Kong? California is way too crowded as it is, at least.

Have you ever driven around California? Everyone is concentrated in two or three cities and the rest is nearly empty!!
You could comfortably fit an entire American population in Alaska alone.

It's not a problem C.F. our world is nowhere near full. Even China is not nearly full. It's just that most areas are off limits, not zoned for residences etc.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I did a sure for Essure.  I don't like it. 

Do you mean that it's morally wrong, or just isn't something you would ever do? It is a lot safer and less invasive than tubal ligation.

[Lisa]

I don't like the fact that it's permanent.  Women are the life givers, and this procedure goes against what nature intended. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Have you ever driven around California? Everyone is concentrated in two or three cities and the rest is nearly empty!!
You could comfortably fit an entire American population in Alaska alone.

The parts of CA where the jobs are are obscenely overcrowded.

It's not a problem C.F. our world is nowhere near full. Even China is not nearly full. It's just that most areas are off limits, not zoned for residences etc.

Who would want to live like Calcutta? What kind of quality-of-life would every American living in the state of Alaska entail?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't like the fact that it's permanent.  Women are the life givers, and this procedure goes against what nature intended. 

So basically you think it is a sin. Do you think permanent contraception should be banned?

Surely you would at least agree it is preferable to abortion.

[Lisa]

I don't think the two are that comparable. 

Sometimes, abortion is a necessity, when the mother's life is in danger.  And a woman who gets an abortion in such an instance may very well be able to have another child. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I did not mean genuine-medical-emergency abortions. I meant abortions for all other reasons (i.e. murder).

Whether or not we all agree with contraception, we should support whatever is likely to lead to fewer abortions. It's not like JTF members have to get sterilized if they do not want to.

[Lubab]

Have you ever driven around California? Everyone is concentrated in two or three cities and the rest is nearly empty!!
You could comfortably fit an entire American population in Alaska alone.

The parts of CA where the jobs are are obscenely overcrowded.

It's not a problem C.F. our world is nowhere near full. Even China is not nearly full. It's just that most areas are off limits, not zoned for residences etc.

Who would want to live like Calcutta? What kind of quality-of-life would every American living in the state of Alaska entail?

You are putting the cart before the horse. Where there is people, there is a need for production and there will be jobs.
People who live an Alaska are quite happy, actually. But I was just using that as an example. You could also fit the entire U.S. population in Texas or Montana if need be.

[Shamgar]

I would just ask people to be responsible for thier actions. You don't have children if you are living out of a shopping cart. You shouldn't have 5 children if you are on welfare and there is only one parent. You shouldn't have children if you are on crack.