Paying women to have tubes tied.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

From Machonshilo (was brousing now, and remembered this topic-)

Can I neuter my dog?
  Written by Webmaster

I am afraid I know of no heter to neuter your dog.
 This issur is explicit in the Tora (Vayikra 22:24), and includes
 all animals as well as humans, see Rambam MT, Issure Bi'a 16:7 (or 16:10 in Vilna edition). The punishment for so doing, in normal times, is malkuth (a lashing). Although dogs
may seem to suffer when other dogs are in heat, this is the way of the
world as HASHEM has created it. We cannot consider the normal
behavior of dogs to be tzsa'ar ba'le hayim.


 But what would be interesting is to ask about a female- since a female doesn't have an obligation to have children, but the obligation is on the male.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You are putting the cart before the horse. Where there is people, there is a need for production and there will be jobs.
People who live an Alaska are quite happy, actually. But I was just using that as an example. You could also fit the entire U.S. population in Texas or Montana if need be.

You can't make jobs out of thin air, as this economy shows us more and more by the day. It's easier to have nastier depressions in a large population because a large labor pool means more competition for scarce jobs. Therefore, just packing everybody like sardines into areas simply to have room to make more people doesn't solve anything, even if we are ignoring the very real and severe quality-of-life issues.

[Lisa]

C.F., the picture on the website of a beautiful young woman in the prime of her life, with a man by her side creeped me out.  I don't like the idea of something so permanent. 

Still I don't think it's a question of either permanent sterility or abortions.

If women don't want babies, they shouldn't have sex.  As for idiots who refuse to take responsibility for their actions, they need to get it through their thick heads that unprotected intercourse any time anywhere is a luxury they can't afford. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If women don't want babies, they shouldn't have sex.  As for idiots who refuse to take responsibility for their actions, they need to get it through their thick heads that unprotected intercourse any time anywhere is a luxury they can't afford. 

I am aware that some religions teach that every single sexual act must be tied to procreation, and respect those who feel this way, but surely you wouldn't want to impose your anti-sterilization beliefs on all. Sterilization is a lot more responsible than more fallible means of contraception, and really leads the people to think deeply about their future, rather than what will get them through the moment. This can't be fairly compared to handing out condoms or the Pill to kids.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

C.F., the picture on the website of a beautiful young woman in the prime of her life, with a man by her side creeped me out.  I don't like the idea of something so permanent. 

This only assumes that every single person was intended to bear biological children. On this issue I disagree with most in this organization, admittedly, but leaving that aside--what is wrong with two mature, responsible people making the right decision for themselves?

[Rubystars]

From Machonshilo (was brousing now, and remembered this topic-)

Can I neuter my dog?
  Written by Webmaster

I am afraid I know of no heter to neuter your dog.
 This issur is explicit in the Tora (Vayikra 22:24), and includes
 all animals as well as humans, see Rambam MT, Issure Bi'a 16:7 (or 16:10 in Vilna edition). The punishment for so doing, in normal times, is malkuth (a lashing). Although dogs
may seem to suffer when other dogs are in heat, this is the way of the
world as HASHEM has created it. We cannot consider the normal
behavior of dogs to be tzsa'ar ba'le hayim.


 But what would be interesting is to ask about a female- since a female doesn't have an obligation to have children, but the obligation is on the male.

People are not overpopulated really but but Dogs and Cats are and many dogs are killed or abused because there just aren't good homes for all of them. I think all pet dogs and cats should be spayed and neutered to prevent unwanted puppies and kittens. Dogs and cats stopped following the natural order thousands of years ago in many ways when humans chose to domesticate them.

[Americanhero1]

[takebackourtemple]

   Lubab makes excellent torah based points. JTF should be against any decent person accepting this, however, the torah also commands us to kill Amaliki. In the case of third world monsters, this should be an option. I would, however, prefer the thousand dollars given to send these people to the third world country of their choice. I don't know how much the surgery costs compared to a one-way plane ticket to Africa, but either option would make the world a better place.

[P J C]

The only thing that makes me WANT to support this is the Illegal Alien crisis.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

The only thing that makes me WANT to support this is the Illegal Alien crisis.

Um..... they can't collect welfare. 

[Dan]

The only thing that makes me WANT to support this is the Illegal Alien crisis.

Um..... they can't collect welfare. 

So let's add another provision... All Illegal aliens will have they're tubes tied as well! or get out!

[Lubab]

What you guys fail to understand is the slippery slope involved here. There is a massive (and false) educational campaign underway, funded by some very wealthy and evil families in this country to convince us all that we're overpopularted...which we are NOT by any stretch of the imagination...I will say it again...we could COMFORTABLY FIT EVERYONE ALIVE TODAY AND EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED...the problem is not overpopulation, it is population CONCENTRATION. Most of California is empty. Most of Russia is empty. Most of America is empty. People just seem to think that if they can't see the land from their favorite highway then it doesn't exist. Well your highway only lets you see the tip of the fingernail of the land that exists in your state or your country.

First it's legalized aboration. Then it's incentivized tube tying. Next it's a one child policy...as they already have in China.

You may not like what third worlders are doing to this country, but TRUST ME, this is not the solution you want. It's not JTF's solution at all. JTF's solutions is economic incentives for the folks to leave. Not to encourage this anti-Torah and anti-life procedure and the more extreme measures that will follow.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I hope that you guys are not saying that everyone who would desire to have their tubes tied is Amalek.

[Lubab]

Planned Parenthood is with you on this one C.F. It is a euphemistic form of genocide. Read your Bible. Amram was punished for being even "worse than Pharoh" because he chose not to have children, which prevented both girls and boys from being bought into the world.

This plan is completely anti-Torah and anti-life. JTF should oppose it strongly.

1: Planned Parenthood doesn't want voluntary sterilization--they want mass, government-subsidized infanticide.

2: I don't have to agree with every single thing Chaim supports, and he doesn't have to agree with everything that I do. Nobody here sees 100% eye-to-eye with JTF, not even Chaimfan. Chaim doesn't require total assent, either.

3: There was a specific time and context to that. The passage is talking about the survival of the Jewish people at the time of the Pharaoh's genocide. Amram did not want to bring children into a world of the Pharaoh's brutality--his sin was cowardice and caving-in to what Pharaoh wanted, not contraception in the modern sense.

C.F.

They are sewn from the same cloth. Look into the groups that are funding PP and look into the groups that are funding the forced sterilizationa and these tube ties. It's the same usual suspects, it's Merk, it's the Melinda and Gates Foundation, it's the Rockellers the Rothchilds and all the other anti-semitic fascist supporters that have been experimenting with eugenics and mass extermination for centuries. It's all drawn from an overiding philosophy that is the same one held by those who helped fund the holocoust.
You don't want to go down this road. Some of the most evil people in history are the ones who want this.

[Lubab]

I hope that you guys are not saying that everyone who would desire to have their tubes tied is Amalek.

You should know C.F. that there is a concept in the Torah of stopping having children if the quality of life would suffer. But permanent disabling of the reproductive system is NOT AN OPTION, NOT ALLOWED.

[Dr. Dan]

it's a mistake to offer services like that...our world is too broken...we value money more than family...This can have dire consequences to the soul of the human species.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

They are sewn from the same cloth. Look into the groups that are funding PP and look into the groups that are funding the forced sterilizationa and these tube ties. It's the same usual suspects, it's Merk, it's the Melinda and Gates Foundation, it's the Rockellers the Rothchilds and all the other anti-semitic fascist supporters that have been experimenting with eugenics and mass extermination for centuries. It's all drawn from an overiding philosophy that is the same one held by those who helped fund the holocoust.
You don't want to go down this road. Some of the most evil people in history are the ones who want this.

Even if the above is true (and I am certain that some of it is), I see no reason to oppose it unless people will be forced to become sterilized. Last time I checked, this proposal was voluntary. Some of the "most evil people in history" agree with us on the subject of immigration, such as the likes of Pat Buchanan David Duke. Now, is that the same kind of issue as this? No, but every imaginable issue under the sun has some very evil supporters and righteous supporters, and vice versa.

I respect your opinion and don't wish to convert you, but the only logical result of this stance would be for JTF to support outlawing all contraception--which I guess Chaim could go along with in theory, but--I will still differ on it.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You should know C.F. that there is a concept in the Torah of stopping having children if the quality of life would suffer. But permanent disabling of the reproductive system is NOT AN OPTION, NOT ALLOWED.

I respect the Jewish position on this, and am not telling you to agree with me--but you didn't answer my question: are you asserting that all persons who want to have tubal ligations are Amalek?

Please answer the question!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

it's a mistake to offer services like that...our world is too broken...we value money more than family...This can have dire consequences to the soul of the human species.

I respect the Jewish position on this matter. I don't think you should all personally support this. Still, I see no reason why JTF shouldn't be "pro-choice" here. It's not like living human beings are being murdered by people wanting to sterilize themselves, and it's not likely that people who will have this procedure done, for money, would care about the Jewish view on it anyway. Even if you personally detest anybody who would take up this offer, I don't see why you all can't say "this is horrible and sinful, but it's their own life, and it will lead to less welfare payments".

[takebackourtemple]

I respect the Jewish position on this, and am not telling you to agree with me--but you didn't answer my question: are you asserting that all persons who want to have tubal ligations are Amalek?

   I'm the one who brought up Amalek. The act of getting their tubes tied does not make them Amalek, but this is something Amalek would do for crack and heroin. I was initially for this idea, but Lubab changed it. I saw it as being similar to Chaim's expatriation idea, but it is not nearly as good of an idea.

[Lisa]

I'm the one who brought up Amalek. The act of getting their tubes tied does not make them Amalek, but this is something Amalek would do for crack and heroin. I was initially for this idea, but Lubab changed it. I saw it as being similar to Chaim's expatriation idea, but it is not nearly as good of an idea.[/quote

That's a good way of putting it, Takebackourtemple.  I was at first for it, since I saw it as voluntary.  But paying such people to leave America is much less intrusive and more ethical.

[SavetheWest]

The only thing that makes me WANT to support this is the Illegal Alien crisis.

Um..... they can't collect welfare. 

No but they get free education, hospital treatment and in many cities and states many services are given for free. For instance, in Oregon youu get a discount if you're an illegal alien for community college but if you're from Montana you have to pay full out of state prices.

[SavetheWest]

Planned Parenthood is with you on this one C.F. It is a euphemistic form of genocide. Read your Bible. Amram was punished for being even "worse than Pharoh" because he chose not to have children, which prevented both girls and boys from being bought into the world.

This plan is completely anti-Torah and anti-life. JTF should oppose it strongly.

1: Planned Parenthood doesn't want voluntary sterilization--they want mass, government-subsidized infanticide.

2: I don't have to agree with every single thing Chaim supports, and he doesn't have to agree with everything that I do. Nobody here sees 100% eye-to-eye with JTF, not even Chaimfan. Chaim doesn't require total assent, either.

3: There was a specific time and context to that. The passage is talking about the survival of the Jewish people at the time of the Pharaoh's genocide. Amram did not want to bring children into a world of the Pharaoh's brutality--his sin was cowardice and caving-in to what Pharaoh wanted, not contraception in the modern sense.

C.F.

They are sewn from the same cloth. Look into the groups that are funding PP and look into the groups that are funding the forced sterilizationa and these tube ties. It's the same usual suspects, it's Merk, it's the Melinda and Gates Foundation, it's the Rockellers the Rothchilds and all the other anti-semitic fascist supporters that have been experimenting with eugenics and mass extermination for centuries. It's all drawn from an overiding philosophy that is the same one held by those who helped fund the holocoust.
You don't want to go down this road. Some of the most evil people in history are the ones who want this.

I disagree.  The Gates foundation actually does nothing to fund sterilization programs.  Their main actions have been providing health services and disease cures for people in Africa and the result has been a population boom.  Even with AIDS deaths, countries like Liberia have 30 times the population growth of America. 

I know what China does is wrong but what would happen if each person there had eight kids? There are no good answers there. 

Many of the areas you're talking about are not livable areas.  Alaska could support millions of more people but the quality of life would go way down. Tens of millions would not be possible. The reason people can afford to live in many of those areas is because they have high paying jobs in the oil or fishing industry.  Most resources there have to be imported and at a huge cost. It would be impossible to live there and people would start depleting the game resources there at an alarming rate. Look at Japan, even with a negative birth rate, they still have huge problems for a large population. You can't find an aprtment for months, driving is nearly impossible, people have to be pushed on to the subway.  What if they all decided to have 10 kids? 

Many of these areas are farmland so you'd also be sacrafising farmland for people eventually.  A US population that had 1 billion people would be a nightmare...every single one of those poeple would want a house, a car, etc. 

 If you fill a glass, eventually it's going to overflow.

[SavetheWest]

I think the men should be sterilized. They have less of a cosequence from having a child and the women have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, so men tend to think less of their actions.  I think drug use and a prison record should be factors too.  All voluntary of course.  They could then freeze the sperm if the man wanted to have children later.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

My responses to all of the above (and once again, I am not urging you all to personally support sterilization--I know it is against Judaism; I just want you to take a "pro-choice" attitude towards it since it is voluntary and nobody is being harmed)

1: I agree, exiling scum is much better than sterilizing them. Sterile human filth can still rob, rape, murder, etc.

2: I agree that male sterilization (the vasectomy) is medically preferable to female sterilization (tubal ligation), but most men--especially primitive Third World men who know nothing about anatomy--think it is an emasculating, feminizing procedure just like castration. Most would never go for it.

3: Who cares if Amalek takes money in order not to spawn any more devil-children?

4: Even for non-Amalek, this could be a good idea. Many dumb people wind up, for whatever reason, having more kids than they can afford. Even if they are decent parents, it is still an enormous strain and burden on their lives. Some of these unwanted pregnancies end up in the abominable crime of abortion. JTF should support anything that lowers the abortion rate.