Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Which Siddur is your favorite?
q_q_:
certainly most rabbis would say follow the customs of your father.
I would probably say do so unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise.
these rabbis that say follow the custom of your father regardless, they usually don't have good sources.
for example, rabbi bar hayyim taught something along the lines of.. If you go to another place, then you can or should let the customs from the old place drop off like rain off a raincoat. But if you are visiting, then you can/should keep the old ones. I don't recall whether he said can/should.
What Judea is saying is taught by rabbi bar hayyim, it's controversial in our times, but it's taking a logical first principles approach, from the talmud.
I would draw a distinction between nusach and pronunciation.
I don't know if pronunciation is considered a "custom". Since there really is an original true pronunciation. Many customs are probably new things.
If it is a custom, then you may still not be bound by the way you pronounce it, because there is such thing as a minhag based on a mistake..
So, if you think your pronunciation is a mistake, then I suppose you are not bound by it..
many would say that you can't prove that a certain tradition is mistaken in a pronunciation of something, and that another pronunciation is the original. Still, I suppose one may think a pronunciation e.g. of a letter, is mistaken, and find one more likely to be accurate.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 25, 2008, 09:28:17 PM ---Hello,
I just came across the Ask the Rabbi section of Yeshiva.org @ http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/ and this very question about nusach came up... Here are three of the relevant answers:
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?cat=297
--- End quote ---
I find it interesting that they don't cite any sources. For the purposes of our discussion here, that is simply not sufficient for an answer on this issue. Rav Bar Hayim did a recent shiur on this very topic, and it was excellent, and quite contrary to what the yeshiva.org rabbis are saying here. He brought up a common mistake that seems to be utilized as well in the answers here, but of course it's impossible for us to know whether or not they are because they don't even provide sources for their answers.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 26, 2008, 09:44:44 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 25, 2008, 09:28:17 PM ---Hello,
I just came across the Ask the Rabbi section of Yeshiva.org @ http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/ and this very question about nusach came up... Here are three of the relevant answers:
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?cat=297
--- End quote ---
I find it interesting that they don't cite any sources. For the purposes of our discussion here, that is simply not sufficient for an answer on this issue. Rav Bar Hayim did a recent shiur on this very topic, and it was excellent, and quite contrary to what the yeshiva.org rabbis are saying here. He brought up a common mistake that seems to be utilized as well in the answers here, but of course it's impossible for us to know whether or not they are because they don't even provide sources for their answers.
--- End quote ---
Rabbi bar hayyim's big concern is the jewish people, living in israel, should not be holding onto customs from all these other countries, the jewish people should be more united.
And if you move from one place to another, permanently, then your old customs (can? or should?) drop off like rain off a raincoat, and you adopt those of your new locality. And he sees this as important psychologically too.
If you are in one place though, then, I doubt you can just switch customs like that. There is the concept of customs being as strong as law. I don't know if that has a basis, but certainly customs have to be kept.
And i'm sure rabbi bar hayyim would think it psychologically wrong to (to use an extreme case) one day be sephardi, the next day ashkenazi, the next day your own thing , e.t.c.
In their defence, in a nutshell. Customs are strong, (strong as law even). And the customs people -have- or first have, are typically the ones from their father.
If you are moving permanently somewhere and you've moved. Then you have a good reason to change or consider changing customs. Otherwise, probably not. If one is bold then one might amend their pronunciation, reasoning that there is an incorrect minhag. One is not bound by a mistaken minhag.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
By changing nusach, you are not "becoming Ashkenazi" or "being Sephardi." Rav Bar Hayim actually said that based on his halachic interpretation one could daven a different nusach every day if he wanted to (he did say "I don't know why someone would" and he imagines it would be very impractical), but technically one could do any nusach they want on any given day if they really wanted to constantly switch it up. This is true for Israel. The passage you (and those who defend 'following the custom of your fathers') cite (from the Gemara) actually has nothing to do with tefillah or nusach, and it doesn't say what people interpret it to say, even if it COULD be extended to nusach, which logically it doesn't work that way anyway. But that sugya is about something entirely different as well.
I'm not sure about other places where there may be a custom attached to the location, but it seems to me that also outside of Israel there aren't many places where there is a "universal" custom to a given place. For instance, Brooklyn NY, there are people davening ashkenazi, sephardi, nusach safarad, etc, all imported from other places. There is no "Brooklyn nusach" that I'm aware of. Tzvi can correct me if I'm misinterpreting Rav Bar Hayim as he applies to locations outside Israel, but this appeared to me what he was saying.
I have Rav Bar Hayim's source sheet, but it was in Hebrew, so it would take me a while to pore over it to be able to quote it directly here and explain it in depth with confidence. Also would take some time to review my notes from the shiur. Perhaps I will do this, bli neder.
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