Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 01, 2008, 04:52:45 PM ---So you support and you oppose the Zohar. This is a very good position to be in, because either way you will be able to say that you are right... That is extemely 'logical'... <sarc>
--- End quote ---
We have been through this many times on other subjects.
I won't rehash.
It won't get anybody anywhere. And it won't get you any better understanding.
You kind of agreed some time back not to refer to my posts with your comments, provoking discussion. People can refer back to previous discussions to see why. It's not good for the forum.
Sefardic Panther:
I am not saying the Zohar is authentic "just because a Kabbalist said so". I had a few reasons for believing that it was’nt authentic (although I did suspect it was partially authentic) so I asked an expert about those reasons and he explained it to me.
The greatest Hakamim (Arizal, Rashash, Ben Ish Hai, Baba Sali, I could go on) accepted the Zohar. Infact many of their teachings, rulings, Kavanot came from the Zohar. Does anyone here think they know better than them? Would they want to dispute the Zohar before a Kosher Beit Din in Yerushalayim?
If I ever meet Moshe De Leon’s wife I’ll ask her why she was embarrassed about selling the Zohar and who did she sell it to. Oh I forgot I don’t have a time machine. In other words how can we possibly know that one?
The school of the Rashbi carried on until the times of the Amoraim. They added some parts, the parts with more modern lingo, to the Zohar. Is the english dictionary filled with elizabethan words? No it has since been revised.
By the way I have read enough of the Zohar to know that it was written in Aramaic not Hebrew.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2008, 05:36:44 PM ---I am not saying the Zohar is authentic "just because a Kabbalist said so".
--- End quote ---
Actually, you did say that. It was the whole basis of your first post.
That was the entire argument that you presented as evidence that it was
"definitely authentic". Notice the subject "The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi". That was the only argument you gave and tried to give, in that first post.
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 01, 2008, 05:32:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 01, 2008, 04:52:45 PM ---So you support and you oppose the Zohar. This is a very good position to be in, because either way you will be able to say that you are right... That is extemely 'logical'... <sarc>
--- End quote ---
We have been through this many times on other subjects.
I won't rehash.
It won't get anybody anywhere. And it won't get you any better understanding.
You kind of agreed some time back not to refer to my posts with your comments, provoking discussion. People can refer back to previous discussions to see why. It's not good for the forum.
--- End quote ---
You surely are a strange one... Are you capable of human conversation or are you just a robot who spews out mysterious and spurious ideas? {rhetorical questions, please don't answer} I had no problem reading Sefardic Panthers post in light of his understanding. You had to make a point to interject a post which doesn't disprove and doesn't support his position... I am really puzzled at what point you try to make. I know you don't care about anyone else besides your own ego so I don't expect you to explain yourself.
I have yet to see a single posting here where you prove how intelligent you think you really are.
muman613
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 01, 2008, 04:44:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 01, 2008, 04:02:47 PM ---LOL, he went to a kabbalist and he confirmed for him that yes the Zohar was written by Shimon Bar Yochai. Great, that really clears up the matter. </sarcasm>
What did you really expect to happen? Anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise. We have already quoted in this forum indirectly what Rav Moshe Feinstein said about it, and we know that Rabbi Yaakov Emden said it was a forgery. If Rabbi Yaakov Emdem was still alive and you could go to him, he would "confirm" for you that it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai. And then you would come to this forum and report it to us that it really was made by Moshe De Leon? LOL.
--- End quote ---
When you go to the extreme that you go to,
e.g. you said "anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise. "
Even claiming the zohar is a forgery.
it really calls into question the sanity or honesty of many great rabbis.
--- End quote ---
Rabbi Yaakov Emden had no problem doing that, nor do the Dor Daim and their gadol, nor do many others. My opinion isn't much needed in this matter. But I am certainly permitted to decide based on the evidence which opinion is more likely, and which is more correct, to my own logic and reasoning. But again, my opinion was never even stated here.
--- Quote ---The Arizal, since he claimed heavenly teachers, and accepted the Zohar.
The Vilna Gaon claimed a heavenly teacher, i'm sure that if the Zohar was a forgery, his heavenly teacher would have told him.
Similarly with the Baal Shem Tov ( an easier target 'cos more of a minority of the O community!)
--- End quote ---
the Arizal - a kabbalist.
The Vilna Gaon - a kabbalist
The Baal Shem Tov - a kabbalist
So that they accepted the Zohar tells us what? You find this surprising?
We need to use our heads here. The blatantly obvious nature of this situation should be somewhat self-explanatory, but I guess I have to explain this further.
" When you go to the extreme that you go to,
e.g. you said "anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise. ""
Nothing I said here is extreme in any way! It is simply logical thought that says that anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist" of course accepts that the Zohar was from Rashbi as the kabbalist claim goes. That is the STARTING POINT for a kabbalist. It would be like asking if a religious Jew accepts the Torah. Of course, by virtue of the fact that they are an Orthodox Jew, they do accept it. Otherwise they couldn't really call themself (honestly) an Orthodox Jew. In just the same way, no kabbalist or "famous mekubal" could ever possibly NOT believe in the Zohar's claim to have authorship by Rashbi. It's quite simple. You've blown this up into absurdity. But can you not see how ridiculous it is to go and ask the local kabbalist the origins of the Zohar? If you don't already know the answer he's going to give you, you need serious help!
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