Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
judeanoncapta:
Although since you have already rationalized the use of spanish words in the Zohar, I'm sure you can find some way out of this.
With all due respect, sir, you are advertising your willingness to beleive absolutely anything.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2008, 05:36:44 PM --- Would they want to dispute the Zohar before a Kosher Beit Din in Yerushalayim?
--- End quote ---
Yes, I will happily dispute the Zohar in front of the Beth Din of Machon Shilo composed of the Dayanim Rabbi Chaim Wasser, Rabbi Yehoshua Buch and the inimitable Mori W'Rabbi David Bar Hayim.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 01, 2008, 04:12:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2008, 10:43:38 AM ---
There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.
--- End quote ---
It was written by Rashbi but only redacted in the times of the Amoraim? Since when is this what kabbalists believe? And even if that was the case, that contradicts what Moshe De Leon claimed and what even you and the kabbalist here claim. That means it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai, if it was REDACTED IN A LATER PERIOD BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE!
--- End quote ---
Is he claiming that Spanish was spoken in Iraq by Jewish Rabbis in the 5th century?
Does he really beleive that?
I am beside myself.
Sefardic Panther:
The Rabbis who said the Zohar was not written by Rashbi are a minority. Quite a few Taymani Yehudim reject the Zohar but the best of them (Rabbi Shalom Shabazi and Rabbi Shalom Sharabi) accept it. I think the people who reject the Zohar take it too literal and forget that its allagorical. Most Rabbis say it was written by Rashbi and many of their rulings came from the Zohar. The Zohar is so ingrained in Judaism that to reject it would risk rejecting too much else. Even Ramban’s commentaries on the Torah look like they came from the Zohar and they were written before Moshe De Leon revealed it!
As far as I know many words in the Talmud Yerushalmi and the Targum by Onkelos are also in the Zohar. Anyway the Zohar has more in common with those Aramaic books than it does with the original books by Moshe De Leon.
The one and only thing I believe is the Torah and what the Hakamim have said. If most of the Hakamim said the Zohar was a forgery by Moshe De Leon then I would believe it was a forgery by Moshe De Leon.
Does Machon Shilo reject all mysticism?
As far as I know there are only a few Spanish words in the Zohar. I doubt that the school of the Rashbi spoke Spanish all the time although they certainly were familiar with foreign languages.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---The Rabbis who said the Zohar was not written by Rashbi are a minority.
--- End quote ---
"If we judge truth by how many people beleive it, Every Jew ought to become a Christian or a Muslim" - Rabbi Meir Kahane
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---Quite a few Taymani Yehudim reject the Zohar but the best of them (Rabbi Shalom Shabazi and Rabbi Shalom Sharabi) accept it.
--- End quote ---
And what makes you think that Rabbis Shabazi and Sharabi were greater than Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh?
And by what basis do you determine that these two Rabbis were the BEST of the Temanim?
What is Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh? Chopped Liver?
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---I think the people who reject the Zohar take it too literal and forget that its allagorical.
--- End quote ---
Kabbalists take plenty of it literally and also their idea of separate parts ie sefiroth within G-d himself is a form of Shituf(assigning partners to G-d) at best and idolatry at worst.
Please read this article. http://www.mesora.org/ToharHayihud.pdf
It is worth every word.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---Most Rabbis say it was written by Rashbi and many of their rulings came from the Zohar.
--- End quote ---
This is very true. An absolute tragedy. Any Jew faithful to the Torah should cry over this fact and certainly ignore such rulings that contradict the Halakha.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---The Zohar is so ingrained in Judaism that to reject it would risk rejecting too much else.
--- End quote ---
No, rejecting an untrue doctrine does not mean that you will necessarily reject true things as well.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---Even Ramban’s commentaries on the Torah look like they came from the Zohar and they were written before Moshe De Leon revealed it!
--- End quote ---
True, and the R''an (Rabbenu Nissim) one of the greatest of the Rishonim criticizes him for relying too much on "This Kabbalah".
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---As far as I know many words in the Talmud Yerushalmi and the Targum by Onkelos are also in the Zohar. Anyway the Zohar has more in common with those Aramaic books than it does with the original books by Moshe De Leon.
--- End quote ---
I haven't read any other books by Moshe De Leon. But I know that the Zohar's aramaic is wildly different from the Talmud Yerushalmi and Targumim. The Aramaic in the Zohar is a different dialect. This is incontravertable fact.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---The one and only thing I believe is the Torah and what the Hakamim have said.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---If most of the Hakamim said the Zohar was a forgery by Moshe De Leon then I would believe it was a forgery by Moshe De Leon.
--- End quote ---
When it first came out, most of the Hakhamim said it was a forgery. The Zohar was directly responsible for the Shabbetai Zvi Heresy. They based everything that they did on the Zohar.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---Does Machon Shilo reject all mysticism?
--- End quote ---
Machon Shilo bases itself on Torah, Logic and Reason.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 02, 2008, 05:54:24 PM ---As far as I know there are only a few Spanish words in the Zohar. I doubt that the school of the Rashbi spoke Spanish all the time although they certainly were familiar with foreign languages.
--- End quote ---
Why is there no French or German in the Zohar? Only the language spoken in Moshe De Leon's country?
Don't you think that is a little too much of a coincidence?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version