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The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi

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Sefardic Panther:
The fact that billions of goyim fallow christianity and islam is irrelevant. I don’t care what goyim think.

Rabbi Shalom Shabazi was one of the best poets ever. His poetry (Diwan) helped the Temanim to survive their most merciless oppression when they were banished to the desert. His Diwan became ingrained in the culture of the Temanim.

Rabbi Shalom Sharabi (the Rashash) was a world famous Mekubal gadol and miracle worker. He is revered by the Shami and all great Kabbalists.

Most Temanim are Shami not Dor Dai. These 2 Rabbis have had a bigger influence on Temani Yehudi culture and Judaism in general than Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh. Thats why I say they are the best Temanim.

The Sefiroth are not “partners to G-d” they are channels which enable the one infinite G-d to interact with finite reality. The Kabbalah’s teaching of the Sephiroth was the origin of the base 10 numeric system everyone uses and has infact foreshadowed string theory 2000 years ago! String theory is physicists latest explanation of the universe which proposes that the universe has 10 dimensions. Even Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh accepted the Sefer Yetzirah which discusses the Sefiroth.

“Any Jew faithful to the Torah should cry over this fact and certainly ignore such rulings that contradict the Halakha."
Are you saying that Yehudim should reject the rulings of the great Torah giants, Arizal, Hakam Abuhatzera, Ben Ish Hai etc? And that their rulings contradict the Halakha?! How can anyone say this?

"True, and the R''an (Rabbenu Nissim) one of the greatest of the Rishonim criticizes him for relying too much on "This Kabbalah"."
So you admit that the Zohar existed before Moshe De Leon revealed it?

Just like the opposite extreme of people taking the Zohar to literally and rejecting it, Shabbetai Zvi accepted it and took it to literally. Remember the Zohar itself warns people not to take it literally. So Shabbetai Zvi done the opposite of what the Zohar says.

What do you define as “logic” and “reason”? What the greeks said?

In ancient times there was a lot of contact between the Holy Land and Spain. The Phoenicians had trading colonies in Spain and there are actually many Spanish words with Semitic origin!

judeanoncapta:

--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---The fact that billions of goyim fallow christianity and islam is irrelevant. I don’t care what goyim think.
--- End quote ---

My point was that one cannot simply say "the majority of Rabbis think like me", perhaps the minority is correct and the majority is incorrect


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---Rabbi Shalom Shabazi was one of the best poets ever. His poetry (Diwan) helped the Temanim to survive their most merciless oppression when they were banished to the desert. His Diwan became ingrained in the culture of the Temanim.
--- End quote ---

Thank you for informing me. I did not know that.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---Rabbi Shalom Sharabi (the Rashash) was a world famous Mekubal gadol and miracle worker. He is revered by the Shami and all great Kabbalists.
--- End quote ---

That I knew.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---Most Temanim are Shami not Dor Dai. These 2 Rabbis have had a bigger influence on Temani Yehudi culture and Judaism in general than Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh. Thats why I say they are the best Temanim.
--- End quote ---

Right. But you're talking about greater influence. So say "most influential"!!!! Saying they are "the best" is a moral judgement on Rabbi Yihya Gafekh that you cannot back up.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---The Sefiroth are not “partners to G-d” they are channels which enable the one infinite G-d to interact with finite reality. The Kabbalah’s teaching of the Sephiroth was the origin of the base 10 numeric system everyone uses and has infact foreshadowed string theory 2000 years ago! String theory is physicists latest explanation of the universe which proposes that the universe has 10 dimensions. Even Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh accepted the Sefer Yetzirah which discusses the Sefiroth.
--- End quote ---

Excuse me, in his writing he condemns the beleif in the sefiroth in a way that I myself found shocking. I will post some of what he wrote in the next post.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---“Any Jew faithful to the Torah should cry over this fact and certainly ignore such rulings that contradict the Halakha."
Are you saying that Yehudim should reject the rulings of the great Torah giants, Arizal, Hakam Abuhatzera, Ben Ish Hai etc? And that their rulings contradict the Halakha?! How can anyone say this?
--- End quote ---

Halakha is only valid when based on the following sources: Sifre, Sifra, Mechilta, Pesikta Rabati, Mishna, Tosefta, Talmudh Yerushalmi and Talmudh Bavli.

The Rambam says this. And he was as great as all of the Torah giants you listed put together.

The idea that Rashbi wrote the Zohar is ludicrous. There isn't the slightest proof that this is so. It contradicts reason and is practically impossible.

But even if he did write the Zohar. He is just ONE Tanna and his opinion is not supreme over all other Tannaim. In fact, in most cases the Halakha is not like Rabbi Shimon Bar Yohai in the Talmudh.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---"True, and the R''an (Rabbenu Nissim) one of the greatest of the Rishonim criticizes him for relying too much on "This Kabbalah"."
So you admit that the Zohar existed before Moshe De Leon revealed it?
--- End quote ---

No, he said Kabbalah not Zohar. The Kabbalah definitely existed before the Zohar.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---Just like the opposite extreme of people taking the Zohar to literally and rejecting it, Shabbetai Zvi accepted it and took it to literally. Remember the Zohar itself warns people not to take it literally. So Shabbetai Zvi done the opposite of what the Zohar says.
--- End quote ---

Please remind me where the Zohar says, "Don't take it literally." Cite your source.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---What do you define as “logic” and “reason”? What the greeks said?
--- End quote ---

Logic and reason, meaning things that make sense. Not things that make no sense like Kabbalah. Everything in the Kabbalah cannot be demonstrated to be true. It is all just taken on faith.


--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 03, 2008, 11:55:15 AM ---In ancient times there was a lot of contact between the Holy Land and Spain. The Phoenicians had trading colonies in Spain and there are actually many Spanish words with Semitic origin!

--- End quote ---

The Spanish words with Semitic origin come from arabic. The Arabs ruled them for quite a while.

It says in the Zohar that we call Synagogues "Eshnoga". If you can find me one Spanish word in the Talmudh or mishna or sifre or mechilta, then you might have a point. But none exist.

You are grasping at straws, prepared to say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to defend a belief that somewhere deep in your mind, you know is not true.

Free your mind, Sefardic Panther and follow in the footsteps of great sefardic rabbis like the Rambam and Rav saadya Gaon and Rabbenu Nissim.

Or, alternatively, you could go get your palm read by a kabbalistic charlatan and stay tuned for a bunch of messianic predictions by Mekubalim that never come true. They are always wrong in all of their arrogant predictions. There is not one word of truth in anything they say. They are liars and frauds giving false hope to credulous people all the while lining their pocketbooks.

"al Tivtehu binidiveem b'ben adam she'ein lo theshua''

If you want examples of incorrect messianic predictions by Kabbalists, tell me. I have a list a mile long.

muman613:
I am one who supports the Zohar, from my understanding of Chassidus.

The entire Torah must be accepted only on faith. We don't know anyone who actually stood at Sinai. We must accept everything based on what we believe and what we experience. There is nothing Proveable about Torah via scientific method {ie. is there evidence that the Sea of Reeds really split? Any evidence of ten plagues?}.

The other question I have is why would anyone write anything like Zohar if it would cause a schism in Judaism? I doubt anyone would even attempt such a forgery. I believe that there were ancient texts which were found and they were compiled in this Zohar. It is possible that there were errors in the publication and those errors are the reason for the misunderstanding.

I find this argument very disheartening. If indeed it is not authentic it is a very bad sign for Judaism as a whole. I truly want to believe that the Zohar is authentic Kabbalah.

PS: The sfierot are not idolatry in the least. In basic Judaism we call Hashem by a number of names. The sfirot are just various names we apply to our relationship with Hashem, they are not divisible forces. Just as I am a man, a husband, an employee, and a son depending on your relationship with me... For example we call Hashem Elokim when he is dealing with us with gevurah, and we call him Ad-nai when we relate to him via Chesed. Hashem is called by these two names in the book of Beresheit.

q_q_:
Muman, the  arguments for the torah's truth are another issue, I suggest you familiarise yourself with them. Maybe make a separate thread for it.  But it's not just something we "take on faith".

By the way, since you mention there is no evidence for the 10 plagues. I should point out there is actually some incredible evidence for the 10 plagues, striking parallels recorded by egyptians, but a question regarding the dating of it. You can start another thread about it if you want about evidence of the torah's truth, but that's a completely different subject, and a large one in itself.  This is about the Zohar and Kabbalah.

Sefardic Panther:
Like it or not Judeanoncapta the Zohar and all the teachings and rulings derived from it as well as similar teachings outside Zohar are an integral part of the Judaic heritage. Kabbalah is the very essence and meaning of Judaism. So many Hakamim much much smarter than me accepted the Zohar. There is not one doubt in my mind about Kabbalah!

“follow in the footsteps of great sefardic rabbis like the Rambam and Rav saadya Gaon”
Yes indeed! And those 2 did not reject Kabbalah! In Moreh Nevuchim Rambam discusses Maseh Bereshith and Maseh Merqavah, older terms for Kabbalah. Rav Saadya Gaon wrote an exquisite translation and commentary of the Sefer Yetzirah another core Kabbalistic text.

You mention Shabbetai Zvi and kabbalistic charlatans. But note there have been plenty of the opposite extreme. Heretic rationalists such as Baruch Spinoza and Solomon Ben Joshua who was big into the Moreh Nevuchim and even called himself “Maimon”.

“Please remind me where the Zohar says, "Don't take it literally”.”
I think it was Tikkunei Zohar or Zohar Parashat Bereshith was the origin of PaRDeS, the 4 levels of understanding Torah – Pshat (literal meaning) Remez (allegorical meaning) Drash (implied meaning) Sod (secret meaning). Rashbi said anyone who takes Torah literally is a fool.   

“The Spanish words with Semitic origin come from arabic”
I think the Spanish word “noche” derived from the Hebrew “neshef” predates the Arabs.

Tell me what is there in Kabbalah that “cannot be demonstrated to be true” and “makes no sense”? On the contrary what about the fact that –

The Zohar says the earth is a rotating sphere and people in different places experience day and night at the same time?

The base 10 numeric system which can depict any number and enables complex mathematics originated from the Kabbalistic concept of the 10 Sefiroth?

Kabbalist gadol and proponent of the Zohar’s authenticity Hakam Yitzhak of Akko said that the universe is 15 billion years old? (this is the exact age of the universe most scientists estimate today!)

Kabbalist gadol Ramban said that the universe was initially as small as a mustard seed until it expanded and became tangible? (compare this with the present big bang model all scientists accept).

Rather than reject Kabbalah you should take pride in the fact that at a time when the goyim (who all constantly ridicule us and think they are better than us) thought the world was flat and only a few thousand years old or eternal, your ancient tradition knew the truth which the goy’s science is only now catching up with!

Anyway since when did Judaism become only believing the “things that make sense” and can “be demonstrated to be true”? If we think like that we will become like Richard Dawkins.   

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