Neuteri karta attack on Chabad is G-D punishing them

[mord]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3638621,00.html 




Neturei Karta: Chabad punished for alliance with Zionists


Article published in anti-Zionist faction's leaflet says Chabad's 'collaboration' with secular Israelis led to Mumbai terror attack

Kobi Nahshoni Published:  12.15.08, 11:45 / Israel Jewish Scene 




An article published this weekend in a leaflet distributed by anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox stream Neturei Karta asserted that the terror attack on the Chabad House in Mumbai was a punishment from God for the organization's collaboration with Zionist Israelis.

 


Six Jews were killed in the attack three weeks ago, including the two Chabad emissaries to the Indian city. Chabad Houses around the world serve as community centers for Jews regardless of the degree of their religious observance.

 

According to the article, Chabad was rightfully punished for its relations with "the filthy, deplorable traitors – the cursed Zionists that are your friends."

 

The writer went on to slam the Hasidic group for inviting to the emissaries' funeral "villainous heads of state who uttered words of heresy and blasphemy."

 

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Chabad itself was imbued with "false national sentiment," the article said, and the organization's centers around the globe hosted religious Jews alongside secular ones without making any distinction "between good and evil, right and wrong, pure and impure, a Jew and a convert, a believer and a heretic."

 

The conclusion, according to the writer, was that "the road you (Chabad) have taken is the road of death and it leads to doom, assimilation and the uprooting of the Torah."

[MasterWolf1]

What a bunch of animals they are

[judeanoncapta]

When I lived in a Haredi neighborhood, they used to leave their pamphlets around.

The funny thing about them is that they are too cowardly to sign anything they write. So all of their anti-zionist polemics are anonymous.

Pretty cowardly.

[Ulli]

Now has Neturei Karta ended up worse than the Westboro Baptist Church.

I think there is no limit in their moral downfall.

If they judge Chabad like this, there is a great possibility, that they will be judged and sentenced by god according to their undoubtable evil deeds (i.e. their support for the Master-Nazi-Quranimal in Teheran Achmadinedschad)

They should do repentence until it is too late. 

[mord]

Now has Neturei Karta ended up worse than the Westboro Baptist Church.

I think there is no limit in their moral downfall.

If they judge Chabad like this, there is a great possibility, that they will be judged and sentenced by G-d according to their undoubtable evil deeds (i.e. their support for the Master-Nazi-Quranimal in Teheran Achmadinedschad)

They should do repentence until it is too late. 

They have alot in common with westboro no one likes them, very very few members and westboro is happy when a U.S. soldier dies because they say America allows homos ,why is that soldiers faults.The N.K is happy when people that don't hate Israel die

[DownwithIslam]

Someone needs to tell these dumbs&^#s that one of their own died in the attack too.

Yes, we should not forget that one of those killed in the Chabad house was a Satmar. What struck me about that is how although Satmar so viscously hates Lubavitch, they make good use of Chabads kindness when it suits them. What hypocrites. Chabad are the most wonderful jews on earth.

[mord]

Westboro site insane              http://www.godhatesfags.com/   










N.K. SITE INSANE  http://www.nkusa.org/

[judeanoncapta]

Now has Neturei Karta ended up worse than the Westboro Baptist Church.

I think there is no limit in their moral downfall.

If they judge Chabad like this, there is a great possibility, that they will be judged and sentenced by G-d according to their undoubtable evil deeds (i.e. their support for the Master-Nazi-Quranimal in Teheran Achmadinedschad)

They should do repentence until it is too late. 

They have alot in common with westboro no one likes them, very very few members and westboro is happy when a U.S. soldier dies because they say America allows homos ,why is that soldiers faults.The N.K is happy when people that don't hate Israel die

Saying that the soldiers deserve death because America tolerates gays is ridiculous.

The military is one of the only institutions in the USA that discriminates against gays.

[DownwithIslam]

Westboro baptist church only has twenty members. Satmar is larger so they are more of a problem. I can't believe a hardcore satmar would go to a chabad house. it just shows the hypocrisy and how chabad is better than all of them. I would of thrown that satmar the hell out of the chabad house but Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife of blessed memory let this satmar untermentsch into the house.

[muman613]

As much as I condemn the actions of the Satmar sect I still do consider them to be Jews, albeit on a very wrong path, but Jews none the less. I have been listening to many Rabbis who say that we must love all Jews no matter what their politics and their views. I have run into Jews from many backgrounds, including Satmar, and they are not intrinsically evil. Those of us who know Torah and Truth must be able to talk to these Satmar Jews and convince them that the current secular state of Israel, with all its warts and ugliness, is better than the world without Israel. Satmar seems to think Torah says that Jews should not control Israel until there is a Torah state and anything less is an abomination to our G-d. In some ways I understand what they are saying. But even with that understanding there is no reason for them to support our enemies in trying to get the state of Israel removed.

Satmar is misguided in their understanding of our Torah. I am sure that if we were in Mitzrayim the Satmar would be still attempting to talk with Pharoah and making deals with the Cananites because they are afraid of going to the promised land. Just like the spies they will die in the desert.

[DownwithIslam]

As much as I condemn the actions of the Satmar sect I still do consider them to be Jews, albeit on a very wrong path, but Jews none the less. I have been listening to many Rabbis who say that we must love all Jews no matter what their politics and their views. I have run into Jews from many backgrounds, including Satmar, and they are not intrinsically evil. Those of us who know Torah and Truth must be able to talk to these Satmar Jews and convince them that the current secular state of Israel, with all its warts and ugliness, is better than the world without Israel. Satmar seems to think Torah says that Jews should not control Israel until there is a Torah state and anything less is an abomination to our G-d. In some ways I understand what they are saying. But even with that understanding there is no reason for them to support our enemies in trying to get the state of Israel removed.

Satmar is misguided in their understanding of our Torah. I am sure that if we were in Mitzrayim the forefathers of Satmar would be still attempting to talk with Pharoah and making deals with the Cananites because they are afraid of going to the promised land. Just like the spies they will die in the desert.

Muman, you are being to lenient in regards to satmar. Their founder, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, wrote a book called Vayoel Moshe in which he called for the violent destruction of the state of Israel, called all the jews living there satans and many other horrible things. That was written in 1961 when jews were being killed there. I despise the evil Satmar cult.

[muman613]

As much as I condemn the actions of the Satmar sect I still do consider them to be Jews, albeit on a very wrong path, but Jews none the less. I have been listening to many Rabbis who say that we must love all Jews no matter what their politics and their views. I have run into Jews from many backgrounds, including Satmar, and they are not intrinsically evil. Those of us who know Torah and Truth must be able to talk to these Satmar Jews and convince them that the current secular state of Israel, with all its warts and ugliness, is better than the world without Israel. Satmar seems to think Torah says that Jews should not control Israel until there is a Torah state and anything less is an abomination to our G-d. In some ways I understand what they are saying. But even with that understanding there is no reason for them to support our enemies in trying to get the state of Israel removed.

Satmar is misguided in their understanding of our Torah. I am sure that if we were in Mitzrayim the forefathers of Satmar would be still attempting to talk with Pharoah and making deals with the Cananites because they are afraid of going to the promised land. Just like the spies they will die in the desert.

Muman, you are being to lenient in regards to satmar. Their founder, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, wrote a book called Vayoel Moshe in which he called for the violent destruction of the state of Israel, called all the jews living there satans and many other horrible things. That was written in 1961 when jews were being killed there. I despise the evil Satmar cult.

I agree that there is much to be shocked about these people. But all I am saying is that all who are a part of Satmar are not intrinsically evil. Dont take what I am saying as supporting them in any way. I am just trying to look for the good in the human spirit. All Jews have a special spark of soul which should provide light. In my view Satmar has dimmed the light because they have violated the mitzvah 'Do not stand idle while your brother bleeds'. To me this is a very important mitzvah and the basic reason I despise NK.

Are all Satmar NK? I did not think so...

.

[muman613]

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar
Satmar and Neturei Karta

The Satmar Hasidim's opposition to Zionism has at times led to comparisons and confusion with the small and controversial Haredi activist group Neturei Karta. While there are ideological similarities between the two groups, they have significantly different historical backgrounds. Satmar's views, as formulated and espoused by Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, were essentially continuations of earlier dynastic teachings about Judaism and the modern world, and are presently maintained by later generations of the Teitelbaum family; keeping the movement's ideology in line with the dynastic hierarchy. By contrast, Neturei Karta, formally created in 1935, was the result of several small and partially ad-hoc coalitions between various groups of marginalized anti-Zionist, mostly non-Hasidic, Haredi Jews living in what was then Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.[11]

While Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum originally supported Neturei Karta's activities in the 1940s and 50's, as led by the late Rabbi Amram Blau, this alliance seems to have cooled or been annulled.[citation needed] Although certain Neturei Karta members or Satmar Hasidim may claim dual membership, Satmar and Neturei Karta are not affiliated with one another. In December 2006, one of the Satmar Rebbes, Rabbi Zalman Leib Teitelbaum, issued a statement, published in Der Yid, strongly condemning seven Neturei Karta followers who went to Teheran, Iran to participate in the Holocaust denial conference organized by the Iranian government.[12] The Edah HaChareidis posted signs reflecting the statement from Rabbi Zalman Leib, however, they later retracted this statement, when it was recognized that those participants denied denying the Holocaust, and the statement was based upon misinformation.[citation needed]

However the Satmar newspaper Der Blatt, published by adherents of Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum, refused to denounce the actions of Neturei Karta, fearing it would send the wrong message to the public as if they have come to peace with any part of the Zionist philosophy, and also believing that since Satmar has no affiliation with Neturei Karta they are under no obligation to support nor denounce them. One prominent member of Rabbi Aaron's faction even publicly denounced those who denounced them as "slanderers of the honorable zealots."[citation needed]

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

Someone needs to tell these dumbs&^#s that one of their own died in the attack too.

Yes, we should not forget that one of those killed in the Chabad house was a Satmar. What struck me about that is how although Satmar so viscously hates Lubavitch, they make good use of Chabads kindness when it suits them. What hypocrites. Chabad are the most wonderful jews on earth.

Certain differences between anti-zionist Chasidim should be pointed out.

Satmar is anti-zionist but they do not support meeting with Arab terrorists and they do not advocate anything that will cause Yidden to suffer or die. Their opposition is to the STATE, not to helping any Jews involved IN the state. I know Satmars who will give tzedukah to ANY Jews in need, but will not give any money to organizations whose goal is to help keep the STATE functioning.

I am not opposed to Satmar; I lived for a time in Boro Park in Brooklyn, and got to know many of them. One of them, a man named Pinchas, graciously paid to bury a (nonreligious) friend of mine who died and was financially destitute, simply because she was a Jew and a customer of his store. When I offered to reimburse him, he looked embarassed and said, "But that is what one Jew does for another."

The Neturei Karta, OTOH, seems to be opposed to the state AND ANYONE involved in working with the state, such as Agudah Israel. They see such Jews as compromisers.

This is why you will find some anti-zionist haredi who will take funding from the state for their schools, and those who will not. They are ALL anti-zionist, but they each have differing philosophies on how to be anti-zionist.

Some reluctantly work with the state because they feel they have some say that way; others see ANY involvements with the state as idolatry.

One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Gee whiz, I know I made a post here, musta just vanished into thin air.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I'd like to meet a member of NK to ask him why they are doing that. While it may true that they may have found a religious Hallachic interpretation to reject Zionism.... what about the Hallacha against Malshinim? Even if Zionism were a sin.... what about the Hallacha which says that a Jew who entices Goyim to attack Jews (even heretic Jews), will have no share in the World to Come?
And why do they criticize Chabad for treating Jews by birth and converts alike? It's an Hallacha to do so!!! There no difference between a Jew by birth and one who VALIDLY converted! (except with regards to marrying Cohanim)

[q_q_]

I'd like to meet a member of NK to ask him why they are doing that. While it may true that they may have found a religious Hallachic interpretation to reject Zionism.... what about the Hallacha against Malshinim? Even if Zionism were a sin.... what about the Hallacha which says that a Jew who entices Goyim to attack Jews (even heretic Jews), will have no share in the World to Come?
And why do they criticize Chabad for treating Jews by birth and converts alike? It's an Hallacha to do so!!! There no difference between a Jew by birth and one who VALIDLY converted! (except with regards to marrying Cohanim)

I spoke to a neturei karta type guy.. I understand their thinking.

what about the Hallacha against Malshinim?

malshinim-informers?

I don't think they are informing.

militant religious zionists don't let them know what they are doing, so they don't have the opportunity to inform.

Even if Zionism were a sin.... what about the Hallacha which says that a Jew who entices Goyim to attack Jews (even heretic Jews), will have no share in the World to Come?

They don't do that though.

Even when they talk of israel they pray for its peaceful dismantlement.

(This is not a cover for something else. They mean  peaceful dismantlement.  They pray to G-d to do it)

And why do they criticize Chabad for treating Jews by birth and converts alike? It's an Hallacha to do so!!! There no difference between a Jew by birth and one who VALIDLY converted! (except with regards to marrying Cohanim)

Those were just a few words of that  article..  It's not part of the satmar or the neturei karta ideology.  Just the individual writer.. making a strange statement i've never heard before.  The other words in that paragraph are a common criticism of chabad.. e.g. that they turn a blind eye when people drive to shul.


Answering your questions hasn't really covered the neturei karta ideology very well.

Generally speaking, asking religious zionists about neturei karta , will get you answers about as accurate as asking  neturei karta about religious zionists. I'm an exceptional case.

We could have a discussion about it, if you agree to focus on what I write and not get diverted when others here post nonsense.

[Raulmarrio2000]

A malshin is someone who speaks against Jews enticing goyim to attack or harm them. A Moser is somoeone who gives information to enemies in a way that they can attack. I don't know that Hallachic difference. A Rav could explain it.
But if hugging Ahamadineyad.... congratulating Hamas..... saying that terror attacks are G-d will... all that in front of Goyim.... if that is not enticing....then what is a malshin??

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Someone needs to tell these dumbs&^#s that one of their own died in the attack too.

Yes, we should not forget that one of those killed in the Chabad house was a Satmar. What struck me about that is how although Satmar so viscously hates Lubavitch, they make good use of Chabads kindness when it suits them. What hypocrites. Chabad are the most wonderful jews on earth.

Satmar was also one of the groups that excommunicated Naturei Karta and despises them.   Hopefully you realize these are two different groups.

[q_q_]

A malshin is someone who speaks against Jews enticing goyim to attack or harm them. A Moser is somoeone who gives information to enemies in a way that they can attack. I don't know that Hallachic difference. A Rav could explain it.
But if hugging Ahamadineyad.... congratulating Hamas..... saying that terror attacks are G-d will... all that in front of Goyim.... if that is not enticing....then what is a malshin??

it's worth pointing out that this is a group or two within neturei karta that stand with our enemies , and visit ahmed.. those actions are condemned by other groups within NK. But anyhow,

they don't congratulate hamas.

they don't say anything against hamas either because they don't want to fight them.

they stand with our enemies at rallies, which is problematic..  and this is what separates them from other NK, satmar, and charedim.

the idea of G-d's actions , good or bad, being G-d's will, is classic. I doubt that they send letters to Hamas telling Hamas that Hamas are doing G-d's will by killing jews.. 

Have you seen video of their meeting with ahmedinejad?  they rise in his honour , they give him a valuable goblet. They are honouring him showing their submission to him, accepting his rule.

Why do they live in America? Because they know america is better!! They know that ahmed is a dictator and they honour him with gifts. They are afraid for the jews in the arab world, so they visit them and make sure they are ok. (their fear is that arabs will get mad and attack all jews- because of zionists).


Their whole thing is they don't want power, they want the nations to have the power. And they want to ingratiate the goyim that grant jews permission to live in the land..

It's not that they are saying "well done, keep killing jews".

Saying that terror attacks are G-d's will is a classic right wing religious attitude, even for religious zionists, that we are sinning and G-d punishes us.  Religious zionists would say we are attacked because we aren't performing G-d's will of removing them from our land - e.g. the tenach talks about the philistines there being thorns in our sides.  When Charedim were targetted in a terrorist attack they responded by looking inwards, what sins had they committed(they just don't think regarding national sins).  NK think zionism is the biggest sin we are doing in our times.. (infact so do satmar probably), charedim consider it a huge sin, like reform(trying to abolish the torah) with guns.

Now, when they stand with people that support Hamas or Hezbollah, not a world leader  like Ahmed. But just regular people.   I think they are just trying to publicise their message.  I have seen them though talk when they are surrounded by such people, and they pray for the peaceful dismantlement of the state. They don't change that message.  But they are standing with our enemies, as if to make our enemies kosher. It is wrong..

They are harmless though.. Informers pass information(this causes great harm). But NK are not in the loop.   They are not double agents pretending to be zionists and passing information to Hamas to help them kill jews.
They do help jews in arab countries. 

I've mentioned the following in past threads, it may interest you

extract from this great interview with an intellectual skver chassid.
http://jschick.blogspot.com/2006/02/rabbi-mayer-schiller-on-neturei-karta.html
RMS: In NK there are several streams. There is 1) Jerusalem based NKers who oppose the state but will never speak about Palestinian rule or what should follow on the state's dissolution. (Like mainstream Satmar they have block in their ideology, that is, no Israel but no alternative!) they would never appear with Palestinians and the like. 2) Rabbi Hirsch who believes that Palestinian rule is inevitable and it is best to be nice today for who knows what will happen later. These people also based in Jerusalem in Torah V'yirah will march with Palestinians. 3) Rabbi Domb in London, very against any involvement with Palestinians although fervently anti state. 4) Rabbi Becher in London. Has his own theory on what Satmar Rov and Reb Amram really wanted. You'd have to ask him. 5) Rabbi Beck and followers. 6) Rabbi Beck's dissidents.

[DownwithIslam]

Someone needs to tell these dumbs&^#s that one of their own died in the attack too.

Yes, we should not forget that one of those killed in the Chabad house was a Satmar. What struck me about that is how although Satmar so viscously hates Lubavitch, they make good use of Chabads kindness when it suits them. What hypocrites. Chabad are the most wonderful jews on earth.

Satmar was also one of the groups that excommunicated Naturei Karta and despises them.   Hopefully you realize these are two different groups.

You are not exactly right. While Satmar and NK are two different groups with different tactics, their end goals are the same and they share the same beliefs. They both would like the destruction of Israel but they differ on how to bring it about. NK believes in making a huge chilul hashem and doing it in a militant way while satmar is more quiet about it. How can you say that mainstream satmar doesn't believe in these things when their Rabbi wrote a "sefer" in 1961 openly calling for the destruction of Israel, calling the zionists satan and lots of other hateful things. Take for example the Teitelbaum guy who was killed in the Chabad house. He was as mainstream satmar as you can get and he was married to the daughter of one of the biggest satmar rabbis in existence. His father is the volover rabbi who is one of the biggest kashrus supervisors. When teitelbaum was killed in the chabad house, the first thing his close family did was make sure that zionists have nothing to do with the body and that all israel should do is transport the body back to israel. They said it would be a disgrace if zionists were involved. It's funny how it was fine to use out the govt to bring the body back. I would of made them find their own means of transporting the body. Te moral of the story is that satmar agrees with nk about the need for israels destruction but they differ on tactics.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Someone needs to tell these dumbs&^#s that one of their own died in the attack too.

Yes, we should not forget that one of those killed in the Chabad house was a Satmar. What struck me about that is how although Satmar so viscously hates Lubavitch, they make good use of Chabads kindness when it suits them. What hypocrites. Chabad are the most wonderful jews on earth.

Satmar was also one of the groups that excommunicated Naturei Karta and despises them.   Hopefully you realize these are two different groups.

You are not exactly right. While Satmar and NK are two different groups with different tactics, their end goals are the same and they share the same beliefs. They both would like the destruction of Israel but they differ on how to bring it about. NK believes in making a huge chilul hashem and doing it in a militant way while satmar is more quiet about it. How can you say that mainstream satmar doesn't believe in these things when their Rabbi wrote a "sefer" in 1961 openly calling for the destruction of Israel, calling the zionists satan and lots of other hateful things. Take for example the Teitelbaum guy who was killed in the Chabad house. He was as mainstream satmar as you can get and he was married to the daughter of one of the biggest satmar rabbis in existence. His father is the volover rabbi who is one of the biggest kashrus supervisors. When teitelbaum was killed in the chabad house, the first thing his close family did was make sure that zionists have nothing to do with the body and that all israel should do is transport the body back to israel. They said it would be a disgrace if zionists were involved. It's funny how it was fine to use out the govt to bring the body back. I would of made them find their own means of transporting the body. Te moral of the story is that satmar agrees with nk about the need for israels destruction but they differ on tactics.

No, they don't share the same goals and they don't have the same beliefs.   That's by definition what it means to be "two different groups."

Satmar hates the state of Israel and thinks all zionists are evil.   I don't agree with them, but that doesn't make them Naturei Karta.   Naturei Karta is far worse.    Naturei karta had candlelight vigils with our enemies - Arafat yimach shemo, for instance - and they attend shoah denial conferences and hug Achmedinejad.   Say what you want about Satmars' religious beliefs but they don't do this kind of stuff!     In fact, they excommunicated Naturei Karta because of the whole candlelight vigils with the PLO garbage.    Naturei Karta literally celebrates our enemies' murder of Jews.   Satmar Jews think the Naturei Karta are "beyond the pale" and completely illegitimate, and for good reason.     I am not a fan of Satmars' beliefs, but don't call them a different group that they aren't.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Westboro baptist church only has twenty members. Satmar is larger so they are more of a problem. I can't believe a hardcore satmar would go to a chabad house. it just shows the hypocrisy and how chabad is better than all of them. I would of thrown that satmar the hell out of the chabad house but Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife of blessed memory let this satmar untermentsch into the house.

Your hatred really knows no bounds.   Here you have a Satmar Jew who is obviously more open than most of his coreligionists that he could recognize the common ground with our Chabadnik brothers, and actually associate with them (unlike many of these two groups who despise each other), and here you condemn him as a hypocrite to the "beliefs" against Chabad, beliefs that you yourself despise and condemn constantly!?    The fact that you are desecrating this person's memory, a person who you have never met and know nothing about (except the fact that clearly he is a tolerant/openminded Satmar Jew who spent time with Chabad Jews in India), a Jew who was murdered by our Muslim nazi enemies for the simple fact that he was a Jew, that you condemn him is so incredibly evil that I am at a loss for words.   I urge you to rescind your evil slander and refrain from this sickening behavior. 

May Hashem have mercy on us.    And may the memory of the righteous martyrs be for a blessing.

[q_q_]

KahaneBT,

Somebody that doesn't get it by now will not get it.  I could say you're not a psychiatrist so you can't help. But even a psychiatrist can't help somebody that doesn't want to he helped.

The distinction between satmar and neturei karta is obvious and has even been said by Rabbi Meir Kahane, and I think Chaim too, and mentioned before again and again to these characters here.  I wouldn't engage them in this much endless dialogue..  

The only time it is worthwhile having a dialogue with somebody that won't get it, is if there is something new to add and somebody else may benefit.   This isn't the case here. Anybody that could benefit has already seen what you have said, and can look to previous threads too.  I think that your mind and time are too precious a resource to waste on this. There have been enough previous experienes like this, on this exact subject, with these characters, so a)one already knows they won't get it b)the discussion on the distinction is in previous threads anyway.

But you are wrong if you suggest that NK want a militant destruction of israel. They pray for its peaceful dismantlement.  I explained this somewhat to Raul, who asked some strange questions that gave him half a picture.