Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile

[judeanoncapta]

Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.

Charismatics are members of an established monotheistic, Biblical faith (Christianity or Judaism) who, albeit being theologically orthodox, are more experientially and "Spirit"--oriented than their brethren in the same faiths. They emphasize joy, celebration, G-d's love, and welcoming/outreaching to all fellow Christians and Jews more than doctrinal matters. In Christianity, the Pentecostal (like Assemblies of G-d, which is Sarah Palin's church) and Calvary Chapel denominations are "charismatic". In Judaism, the Lubavitch/Chabad and Breslov Chasidim movements are "charismatic".

One thing to note is that the charismatic Christians are especially likely to be strong Zionists.

If one wants to discuss Nazi religions, you could probably call the Sufis/Dervishes "charismatic Muslims", but I prefer not to pollute the term by applying it to devil-worship.

Actually during the crusades, Saladin invited Sufi Imams to watch his men behead prisoners of war. They gleefully accepted.

So therefore charismatic Muslims are charismatic about Islam. Which means being charismatic about Bloodshed and Death.

In fact one of the main Islamic factions who are building up toward violent revolution in Morrocco are Sufi.

Also the Chechens belong to a Sufi sect and they've blowing up Infidels for quite a while now.

[judeanoncapta]

I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

No, Chabad beleives that the State of Israel should never have been established but now that it is and the Arabs would slaughter us if  we give them half a chance, it should be maintained as a matter of life and death.

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

I beleive lubab would say the same thing I just wrote. He has written it in other threads.

I disagree with this position wholeheartedly and so does Chaim, but that is the Chabad position.

[Zelhar]

I just want to make it clear, by anti-zionist I mean the Charedim who consider the establishment of any Jewish state before Meshiach comes as a rebellion against God.

[q_q_]

I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

No, Chabad beleives that the State of Israel should never have been established but now that it is and the Arabs would slaughter us if  we give them half a chance, it should be maintained as a matter of life and death.

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

I beleive lubab would say the same thing I just wrote. He has written it in other threads.

I disagree with this position wholeheartedly and so does Chaim, but that is the Chabad position.

and of course not just chabad..

Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

[judeanoncapta]

I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

No, Chabad beleives that the State of Israel should never have been established but now that it is and the Arabs would slaughter us if  we give them half a chance, it should be maintained as a matter of life and death.

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

I beleive lubab would say the same thing I just wrote. He has written it in other threads.

I disagree with this position wholeheartedly and so does Chaim, but that is the Chabad position.

and of course not just chabad..

Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

No, it's about half and half.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

No, it's about half and half.

half and half in growth too?

[judeanoncapta]

<snip>
Maybe religious zionists are a minority of orthodox jews even in israel.

No, it's about half and half.

half and half in growth too?

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Actually during the crusades, Saladin invited Sufi Imams to watch his men behead prisoners of war. They gleefully accepted.

So therefore charismatic Muslims are charismatic about Islam. Which means being charismatic about Bloodshed and Death.

In fact one of the main Islamic factions who are building up toward violent revolution in Morrocco are Sufi.

Also the Chechens belong to a Sufi sect and they've blowing up Infidels for quite a while now.

Of course the Sufi are evil jihadist Nazis--that was not in doubt. That is why I questioned whether it would be fair to use the term "charismatic" (which is generally used just for righteous religions) on them. But Sufis are experientially- and emotionally-oriented Muslims in their practice, so they are charismatic in that way.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If you don't beleive in the prophecy of Moses, how can you accept the Seven Laws written therein?

Although if you mean accept as in "are required to keep and practice", then no. Noahides are not required to keep those commandments that were commanded by G-d through Moses to the Children of Israel.

Sorry, I meant "required to keep" by accept.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I've said many times that he is quite logical, but you missed it because the threads were high level , you weren't in them.

I do believe I was using sarcasm; I guess you missed it.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

They do not view the establishment of the State as part of any Messianic or End Times scenario.

Hmmm. Interesting topic. I do not know nearly enough about this so I will defer to your judgment. But what matters is that Lubavitchim are devoutly Zionist in practice. They love their brothers and sisters more than anything else. In terms of everyday Jews one is likely to encounter, you won't meet anyone who loves their country and fellow Jews more than the Chabad.

In terms of "Messianic" and eschatological reasons for being Zionists, I admit I don't know a lot about this topic as applied to Judaism, but in a way I don't necessarily think that should be the reason why we support Israel in the first place. To explain what I mean using my own faith, some Christians primarily support Israel because they think it is necessary for the completion of the end times and the Second Coming of Jesus, and that is completely the wrong idea. We should support Israel simply because it is G-d's Chosen People and nation--it is as simple as that.

Getting back to the Chabad, even if they are anti-Zionist in theory, I will overlook that because their behavior and practice is what matters much more. A lot of left-wing, secular Jews support Israel in theory, but in practice want her to commit national suicide. I definitely support the Chabad a lot more than the Satmar and their Jewish Martin Luther "rabbi" Joel Teitelbaum, who to his last gasp labored feverishly to annihilate the Jewish nation and all of his brothers and sisters living there.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

 You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).

[judeanoncapta]

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

You do a stunning job of taking comments in context!

[Zelhar]

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

 You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).

Tzvi, this is not the place for such activity.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).

Tzvi, this is not the place for such activity.

Tzvi wasn't targetting against any particular religion. I don't think it is bad or offensive on a jewish forum to talk of the 7 laws

[judeanoncapta]

No, the haredi growth rate is atleast 50 percent higher.

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

 You are an absurdity. G-d forbid that anyone should say that Jews having a high birth rate is a problem.

Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).

Although I agree with you, I have to say the CF is correct that if the Haredim became the majority of the country tommorow, we would not have acheived all that much. The buses would not run on Shabbath and the Pork stores would be outlawed. Big deal.

The Haredim are very zealous about fulfilling 200 or so commandments. It is the other 413 that they couldn't care less about.

The vast majority of the commandments are national in scope and can only be implemented by a government. The Haredim oppose a Jewish government and therefore oppose atleast 400 of the commandments of the Torah.

Their attitude is, "if our forefathers didn't do this commandment in Poland, Russia, Hungary, Morrocco, Iraq, etc. etc. etc. then it really must not be that important."

They therefore nullify the majority of the commandments and in fact the underpinning of the entire Torah. Exodus 19:6 "ו  וְאַתֶּם תִּהְיוּ-לִי מַמְלֶכֶת כֹּהֲנִים, וְגוֹי קָדוֹשׁ, and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation."

This is underpinning of the entire Torah, that the Jewish people live as a nation with their own government(kingdom) and apply the laws of the Torah on a national scale(holy nation).

This idea is so scarce in the Haredi world that when Rav Bar Hayim quoted this Pasuq(verse) to a Haredi, he said "I've never heard anyone say such a thing in my whole life, Where did you get that from?"

That is a total breakdown in the correct understanding of the Torah. A TOTAL BREAKDOWN.

That is why, Tzvi Ben Roshel, I opposed your promotion of Rabbi Mizrahi and torahanytime.org

Because I knew that he was only teaching 200 commandments instead of 613.

[Zelhar]

<snip>
Anyway the topic is not about Haredim and the state, etc. It is about the nations getting ride of their klippot and accepting the Noahide laws that G-d has intended for them.
 ( It's also a simple video I came across and wanted to share).

Tzvi, this is not the place for such activity.

Tzvi wasn't targetting against any particular religion. I don't think it is bad or offensive on a jewish forum to talk of the 7 laws

Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.

[muman613]

Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>

what you said there is confused.

But who is the someone that you refer to?

It is clear what I said here... What is it that confuses you? According to your own statements you have said the same as I have. Religious zionists are not supportive of the secular Israel state because of their understanding of Torah. I also stated that it is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith to believe in Moshiach, and thusly believe in the ingathering of exiles which our prophets describe.

Is there any more need for clarification?

Also, the message I refered to was posted by JewishAmericanPatriot on Dec 16 @ 5:39PM

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29505.msg306732.html#msg306732

<snip>
One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.

[judeanoncapta]

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

It's like when people use the term Religious Nationalist. It gives the impression that one is fusing two different ideas, religion and nationalism. I don't want to fuse anything. I see no need to fuse. I read the Torah and I don't see two different ideas. Just one tree of life growing in the land of the living.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

[judeanoncapta]

Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>

what you said there is confused.

But who is the someone that you refer to?

It is clear what I said here... What is it that confuses you? According to your own statements you have said the same as I have. Religious zionists are not supportive of the secular Israel state because of their understanding of Torah. I also stated that it is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith to believe in Moshiach, and thusly believe in the ingathering of exiles which our prophets describe.

Is there any more need for clarification?

Also, the message I refered to was posted by JewishAmericanPatriot on Dec 16 @ 5:39PM

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29505.msg306732.html#msg306732

<snip>
One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.

The only thing wrong with holding this view is that it leads directly to Auschwitz. Those leaders who hold this view lead their flocks from one disaster directly into another.

[muman613]

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.

[judeanoncapta]

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.

Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.

As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their worldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.

Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.

They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer:       OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com