Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile

[muman613]

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.

Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.

As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their woldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.

Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.

They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer:       OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com

Well personally I know my Chabad rabbi has gone to Israel several times and my Modern Orthodox Rabbi has family which lives in Israel. I share a bit of disappointment in Chabad for not being more concerned with making Aliyah but I will find you some articles from Chabad site which support the establishment of a Jewish state.

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/livingtorah_cdo/aid/56657/jewish/Aliyah-to-Israel.htm
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/524928/jewish/Were-Home.htm

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach. As a matter of fact I heard Rabbi Lazer Brody say it in the shuir I listened to last night. He says that in the age of Moshiach all of mankind will know the glory of Hashem. It is the Jews mission to bring Hashem to the world, as this was the reason Hashem loved Abraham. Abraham brought Hashem to the pagan world and was rewarded with being the father of the Jewish nation.

http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.

That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.

Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?

I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.

I would not characterize machonshilo that way.

I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.

Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.

I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.

And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.

I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.

Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.

As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their woldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.

Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.

They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer:       OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com

 You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense. Do you know all the Rabbis on it? Do you not know the damage you would be making (both on Jews by making them discouraged) and to some gentile pupets here who will only repeat the negativity they hear here and start attaching curses to our fellow Jews and Jewish organizations just because they heard 1 Jew say something negative.
  Do you want to be hahav for lashon hara (actually worse) to every single Rabbi who is on it and expecially for those who have spoken agains't giving away land, moving to Israel etc. ?
  
  

     Not everyone is a zionist. Zionist has many meanings and angles by the way you look and define it. If I was a Rav 50,100 or 200 years ago, I probably would say the same thing- I would be agains't the secular zionists, and tell my community not to join them. Do you know what happened to the majority who joined them? - they eventually became them. I would of-course preach the love of the land of Israel, love of the People of Israel and the real way of loving them- making them get closer to the Torah, but I probably would tell my followers to keep a distance from the eruv rav, becuase they are tricky in the way they took Jewish souls away from Torah. (coming as the Moshiah -saying salvation already came).
  Anyway everyone wants the best thing- we all agree that the goal is a Holy nation in the land of Israel, keeping the Torah, etc.
 BUT the problem and the mahlokit is how do we get there?

- by the way if their are replys and I dont get back right away, it is becuase I am very bissy (finals are a killer).- Give me some time.
 

[muman613]

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/judaism/hashkafa/who_controls_israels_destiny.aspx?id=10843&language=english
Who Controls Israels Destiny - by the Lubavitcher Rebbe

Editor’s note: The words of a true tzaddik said years ago are amazingly live and true today. The following are translated excerpts from the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s discourses from 1982, that implores the leaders of the Israeli government not to bow to international pressures, for Hashm runs the world...


At a Chassidic gathering held on Shabbos Bereishis, the Lubavitcher Rebbe focused his attention on the teaching with which Rashi begins his commentary to the Torah. The Rebbe explained that like all of Torah, this teaching should not be regarded merely as an abstract principle, but rather as a construct practically applicable throughout our nation’s history.
 
The same principles, the Rebbe explained, are relevant in the present age and should be employed within today’s contemporary political arena. Presenting the Torah’s ideas straightforwardly and without apology is the means to influence public opinion at present.
 
In this vein, we are publishing an adaptation of the Rebbe’s words with the hope that their study and their application will bring peace, security, and prosperity to the Jewish people. (Sichos In English 29 Tishrei, 5752)
  
Rashi’s1 First Teaching
 
Sequence is of crucial importance in the study of the Torah2 Giving one subject precedence over others endows it with prominence. In this vein, it is significant to note how Rashi, the commentator who seeks to reveal "the simple meaning of the Torah’s words,’’ 3begins his commentary on the Torah. Rhetorically, he asks4 why the Torah does not begin with the description of the mitzvos which the Jews were commanded to fulfill and explains that it was necessary to recount the narrative of creation and the early phases of the formation of the Jewish nation so that:
 
If the nations of the world tell the Jews; "You are robbers, for you have taken forceful possession of the lands of the... nations,’’ the [Jews] will reply, "The entire world belongs to G-d. He created it and He gave it to whom He saw fit.’’
 
Rashi associates this teaching with the verse5 "The power of His works He declared to His people,’’ emphasizing that it is not the shifting socio-economic forces in the world at large that mold the fate of our people, but rather "the power of His works.’’
 
Relying on the Rock of Israel
 
This lesson has been expressed throughout the course of our nation’s history. Even in times of persecution and oppression, when outwardly, their fate appeared to depend on the decisions of gentile powers, the Jews knew that G-d was the source of their deliverance.
 
This approach does not imply that we should rely on faith alone. On the contrary, the Torah obligates us to employ all the natural means at our disposal and not to rely on miracles.6 Nevertheless, the natural means which we employ cannot alone promise success, for success depends on G-d. Needless to say, an approach which reflects a lack of faith in G-d will not have positive consequences.
 
Our Destiny is in G-d’s Hands
 
This lesson is particularly relevant at the present time. The Jews must realize that their security and well-being is a matter between them and G-d alone. Even when we are in a situation where we require the generosity and favor of non-Jewish powers, they do not control the fate of our people. Our people’s destiny is dependent on "the power of His works.’’
 
This is the message which the Jewish people must communicate to the nations of the world -- that G-d has given us Eretz Yisrael and that He determines our security and well-being.
 
Relaying this message will influence world opinion, for the Torah is accepted by all nations. When the Torah’s message is communicated to them straightforwardly, without apology, they will listen.
 
"Wonders in All Things’’
 
The above is particularly relevant in the present year, 5752, for the letters of its Hebrew equivalent serve as an acronym for the Hebrew words meaning, "This will be a year of wonders in all things.’’ The previous year was described as "a year when `I will show you wonders,’ ’’7 and we saw wonders manifest throughout the world. This year the wonders will be greater and more encompassing, bringing success and prosperity for Jews in all places and particularly in Eretz Yisrael. May these wonders also include the ultimate wonder -- the coming of the Redemption and may this take place in the immediate future.
  

[Ulli]

Basically, they are now a part of the Jewish religion.

It is imo nothing wrong with this.

[judeanoncapta]

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.

That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.

To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.

It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.

It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.

Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.

[muman613]

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.

That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.

To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.

It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.

It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.

Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.

But there are legitamite reasons people are in their situations. As much as I would love to make Aliyah I have family who would not... I think I will wait till my parents pass then I will be free to move without concern for their safety and livelihood.

I think it is not possible for every Jew to pick up and move to Israel right now. I understand the desire to move but I also am lenient when it comes to people whos circumstances are not ripe for the move.

I think it is harsh to cut off all Jews who are waiting for Moshiach to come.

PS: Did not the Jews in Mitzrayim have to wait for Moshe to come? Didn't some others try to leave Egypt and they died in the desert? Did they not have to fall to the 49th level of impurity before Hashem sent Moshe?

[judeanoncapta]

 You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense. Do you know all the Rabbis on it? Do you not know the damage you would be making (both on Jews by making them discouraged) and to some gentile pupets here who will only repeat the negativity they hear here and start attaching curses to our fellow Jews and Jewish organizations just because they heard 1 Jew say something negative.
  Do you want to be hahav for lashon hara (actually worse) to every single Rabbi who is on it and expecially for those who have spoken agains't giving away land, moving to Israel etc. ?
  
  

     Not everyone is a zionist. Zionist has many meanings and angles by the way you look and define it. If I was a Rav 50,100 or 200 years ago, I probably would say the same thing- I would be agains't the secular zionists, and tell my community not to join them. Do you know what happened to the majority who joined them? - they eventually became them. I would of-course preach the love of the land of Israel, love of the People of Israel and the real way of loving them- making them get closer to the Torah, but I probably would tell my followers to keep a distance from the eruv rav, becuase they are tricky in the way they took Jewish souls away from Torah. (coming as the Moshiah -saying salvation already came).
  Anyway everyone wants the best thing- we all agree that the goal is a Holy nation in the land of Israel, keeping the Torah, etc.
 BUT the problem and the mahlokit is how do we get there?

- by the way if their are replys and I dont get back right away, it is becuase I am very bissy (finals are a killer).- Give me some time.
 

Is there a single Rabbi on that site supports building the Temple or do they think it fall out of heaven with the Moshiach riding on top of it?

As far as my non-sense, I think I was being quite rational actually and you completely missed my point about their One Third Of The Torah ideology.

As far as the Rabbis in Europe who told their flocks not to join the Zionists and move to Israel, you have danced away from the fact that their followers were mostly slaughtered as a result of their terrible advice. Can you not admit that telling your flock to stay in Europe was atleast incorrect?

And no, the Haredi world does not beleive in the Jewish people living as a Holy Nation in Eretz Yisrael.

Their goal is the simple perpetuation of Galuth Judaism. The perpetuation of the Jewish relgious culture of Poland, Hungary, Russia, Iraq, Morrocco. etc. etc.

Their goal is not their creation of a unified Holy Nation living in Eretz Yisrael nor in establish a kingdom of priests since they oppose Jewish soveignty of any kind. They love the Galuth so much, that they want us to live in it culturally forever.

Oh, unless the Moshiach walks in the door and then everything will magically change.

[muman613]

Judeanoncapta,

I think you are not being fair to the Rabbis nor to their ideology.

I have heard and seen first hand that Chabad and Breslov both support moving Jews to Israel. Breslov has been in Israel for many years and they are actively working on gathering the Jews into Israel.

Do the Rabbis come out and say to build the Temple? Not exactly. But there is a reason for this. Do you think that all we need to do is build a building called the "Beit Hamikdash" and suddenly the Schechina will occupy it? I am one who thinks that more than a building needs to be constructed. I believe that the world really needs to see the hand of Hashem {like during the Exodus from Mitzrayim} and must have absolute Emmunah {Faith} before the Schechina will dwell in the Temple. If the thread wants to discuss this idea I can find Rabbis who will explain this concept.

I believe that we are falling to the low levels we did while in Mitzrayim and a redemption similar to Hashems miraculous extraction of the Jews from the nation of Mitzrayim is at hand.

http://www.dvar.org.il/drbank/Tetsave.htm
Exploring this, in conclusion, the Haftora brings forward an amazing idea, that the Bnei Yisrael are actually the Beis Hamikdash (adapted from Mayanei HaTorah). Inform Bnei Yisrael of the house – the Bayis Hadash. Let them be ashamed of their sins, according to Yechezkel (43, 10). This is commenting on the use of the word ‘es’ in ‘Haged es Beis Yisrael es habayis’.  He should rather have said ‘el’ Beis Yisrael. This implies that Beis Yisrael are themselves the Beis Hamikdash.  It is in them that the schechina rests. The posuk says, Shachanti besocham – make for me a dwelling and I will dwell in the midst of Bnei Yisrael – in the heart of each of Bnei Yisrael. They will reach a level where they are worthy of my blessing in their midst. Then there is no doubt that they will be ashamed of their previous sins to the extent that the schechina will truly once again be able to return to their hearts.
.
.
.
That was on Shmini Atzeret, the day of judgement for the children of Israel. So we see the tremendous irony of World History. Through the Teshuva of Am Yisrael, the Beis Hamikdash will return. The bigdei Kehuna are an invitation to am Yisrael to come home to Torah, Eretz Yisrael and Olam Haba Be’Olam Hazeh. The design of the third Beis Hamikdash will conclude with the coming of Moshiach, the Teshuva for the sins that we performed during the thousands of years in Galus. They failed to take notice to the Navi’s word. The final Beis Hamikdash turned out not to be the second but the Third which was predicted even in the times of Yitzhak Avinu, with the three be’er Mayim Hayim – the 3 wells of Living Waters.  The weels that he dug. The first one was called Sone, the second Esek – that they involved themselves in his business, parallel to the first Beis HaMIkdash being destroyed and the second Beis Hamikdash, and the third one was called Rehovot – which means vast expanses, in other words, the whole word will be beshlemus in the celebration of the Third Beis Hamikdash. The Maayan shel Torah explains, that this posuk comes to say that even though they did not manage to build the Beis Hamikdash in the manner he described to them, things to them, things would only change if they would change.

[judeanoncapta]

I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.

That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.

To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.

It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.

It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.

Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.

But there are legitamite reasons people are in their situations. As much as I would love to make Aliyah I have family who would not... I think I will wait till my parents pass then I will be free to move without concern for their safety and livelihood.

I think it is not possible for every Jew to pick up and move to Israel right now. I understand the desire to move but I also am lenient when it comes to people whos circumstances are not ripe for the move.

I think it is harsh to cut off all Jews who are waiting for Moshiach to come.

PS: Did not the Jews in Mitzrayim have to wait for Moshe to come? Didn't some others try to leave Egypt and they died in the desert? Did they not have to fall to the 49th level of impurity before Hashem sent Moshe?

I fully understand that every Jew cannot make aliyah in three seconds and that you cannot leave Galuth physically right now.

So leave the Galuth culturally, ideologically and spiritually. The only way is Torath Eretz Yisrael.

As far as Jews in Missrayim have to wait for Moshe to come, they were slaves held in bondage. Not professionals dwelling in Suburbia.

How could anyone even begin to compare the two?

As far as the Targum Yonathan mentioning the Bnei Efrayim who left early and were slaughtered by the Philistines. That is clearly an aggadic statement meant to calm down the rowdy Jews after the Bar Kokhba revolt. There isn't the slightest mention of this in the Torah itself and it is clearly a Midrash meant to influence behavior of the Jewish partisans who were spoiling for another fight with Rome. It is aggada and possibly not an historical event.

And no, they didn't have to fall to the 49th level of impurity for Hashem to send Moshe. It just says that if they had fallen to the 50th level, they wouldn't have been redeemed and moshe would not have been sent.

[George]

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[muman613]

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Have you read this thread?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.

Isn't Christianity pretty much Noahidism by default?

[muman613]

Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.

Isn't Christianity pretty much Noahidism by default?

Not exactly...

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/466119/jewish/The-Seven-Noahide-Laws.htm
http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/introduction.php
http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=225&Itemid=57
http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=344

There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...

[judeanoncapta]

Judeanoncapta,

I think you are not being fair to the Rabbis nor to their ideology.

I have heard and seen first hand that Chabad and Breslov both support moving Jews to Israel. Breslov has been in Israel for many years and they are actively working on gathering the Jews into Israel.

I actually mentioned that about Breslov. But what I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"

The answer is no.

Judeanoncapta,Do the Rabbis come out and say to build the Temple? Not exactly. But there is a reason for this. Do you think that all we need to do is build a building called the "Beit Hamikdash" and suddenly the Schechina will occupy it?

That is precisely what Exodus 25:8 says וְעָשׂוּ לִי, מִקְדָּשׁ; וְשָׁכַנְתִּי, בְּתוֹכָם. They shall build me a sanctuary and I will dwell amongst them.

I am one who thinks that more than a building needs to be constructed. I believe that the world really needs to see the hand of Hashem {like during the Exodus from Mitzrayim} and must have absolute Emmunah {Faith} before the Schechina will dwell in the Temple.

The world saw the hand of Hashem during the Exodus and they didn't change all that much. To put the Torah on hold until not only the Jews are perfect but the ENTIRE WORLD is perfect. This idea is simply too much to take.

Judeanoncapta,I believe that we are falling to the low levels we did while in Mitzrayim and a redemption similar to Hashems miraculous extraction of the Jews from the nation of Mitzrayim is at hand.

That's why you need to study Torath Eretz Yisrael, so you will drop ideas like this.

The Talmudh Yerushalmi, which was written in Eretz Yisrael, compares the Future Redemption to the story of Purim, not the Exodus.

That's right, Purim. The one redemption where nothing supernatural happened at all.

The Exile Today is one of the mind and you don't need a miracle. You can free yourself.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense.

Yes Tzvi, everybody except you, your Agudah Charedim friends, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who you worship, talk "nonsense". Mm-hmm.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Nice to see you're having a good morning too, Ralph. Isn't it about time to make a thread about black peoples' jaws?

[judeanoncapta]

Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?

We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?

Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.

No, they're not.

And C.F. in no troll.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...

I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

And C.F. in no troll.

Nevermind him JNC. This is Ralph, who makes endless racial posts and who last night actually made a thread saying that the JTF forum has peaked and is now on a decline.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"

Judeanoncapta, I think you are probably right here (I don't know all of the particulars of Chabadism by any means), but in practice this is a technicality. The vast majority of Lubavitchim are very faithful and devout Zionists who love their brothers and sisters wherever they are, and all over the world. During the 2006 "war" with Hezbollah, who were the only rabbis joining the soldiers (regardless of what denomination of Judaism they were, or even if they were totally secular) on the battlefield while antitank missiles were falling all around them? The Lubavitch. Who are the Jews who dedicate their lives to outreach all over the world to minister to fellow Jews in all circumstances? What Jews just gave their lives in Mumbai serving the confused, lost, desperate young secular Israeli "pilgrims" who go there to dabble in Eastern thought and "find themselves"? Chabad. I guarantee you that they did not lead a comfortable life and would have done a lot better, and probably still be alive, if they were to take a position in the United States or Israel.

I think that the heart, and the life that is lived out (what Christians refer to as "the fruits of the Spirit") matter more than doctrine. Regardless of what the exact fine points are of what the Chabad technically believe about Zionism, they are amazing Jews and a true testimony to the awesome work of Hashem.

[judeanoncapta]

There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...

I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".

Gentiles are not required to have a pure monotheism ie. total beleif in one indivisible omniscient creator with no other powers with him.

But then again they cannot commit idolatry and the line between the two is very fine indeed.

That is why some authorities say that Christianity is idolatry for Noahides and some say it is not.

I don't know what the truth is, because every Christian I meet seems to beleive something different. And to be honest, I have no idea to whom he is praying when he bows his head.

I don't mean to offend you, but this is what seems to me to be the reality.

[judeanoncapta]

What I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"

Judeanoncapta, I think you are probably right here (I don't know all of the particulars of Chabadism by any means), but in practice this is a technicality. The vast majority of Lubavitchim are very faithful and devout Zionists who love their brothers and sisters wherever they are, and all over the world. During the 2006 "war" with Hezbollah, who were the only rabbis joining the soldiers (regardless of what denomination of Judaism they were, or even if they were totally secular) on the battlefield while antitank missiles were falling all around them? The Lubavitch. Who are the Jews who dedicate their lives to outreach all over the world to minister to fellow Jews in all circumstances? What Jews just gave their lives in Mumbai serving the confused, lost, desperate young secular Israeli "pilgrims" who go there to dabble in Eastern thought and "find themselves"? Chabad. I guarantee you that they did not lead a comfortable life and would have done a lot better, and probably still be alive, if they were to take a position in the United States or Israel.

I think that the heart, and the life that is lived out (what Christians refer to as "the fruits of the Spirit") matter more than doctrine. Regardless of what the exact fine points are of what the Chabad technically believe about Zionism, they are amazing Jews and a true testimony to the awesome work of Hashem.

I agree with alot of what you say. I am not attacking attacking their actions. Or their doctrine,(atleast not in this thread).

I was just trying to clarify what their position is. And not allow their position to change in a way that would be untruthful.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Gentiles are not required to have a pure monotheism ie. total beleif in one indivisible omniscient creator with no other powers with him.

But then again they cannot commit idolatry and the line between the two is very fine indeed.

That is why some authorities say that Christianity is idolatry for Noahides and some say it is not.

I don't know what the truth is, because every Christian I meet seems to beleive something different. And to be honest, I have no idea to whom he is praying when he bows his head.

I don't mean to offend you, but this is what seems to me to be the reality.

No, nothing that you have said is offensive. I agree that the diversity of beliefs within Christendom is mind-boggling. I know that the subject of the Trinity is very hairy, sensitive, and difficult. So, I'll just accept the answer that it might be default Noahidism and it might not.

[muman613]

You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense.

Yes Tzvi, everybody except you, your Agudah Charedim friends, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who you worship, talk "nonsense". Mm-hmm.

C.F,

This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.

There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.
  

[Zelhar]

There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...

I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".

C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument).