Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

[~Hanna~]

Oh, Thankyou for posting this, I never had heard all of this before, now it more clear to me...

IS THERE SOMEWHERE I COULD FIND OUT SOME MORE ABOUT THIS?

thanks so much.....

[~Hanna~]

Don't everybody jump in here and tell me all at once....

I cannot handle all the information....

[muman613]

I didn't see the video but I assume this is discussing the Noachide laws?

I am fully supportive of any non-Jew who wants to accept unto themselves the seven laws of Noach. There is much written about it and Breslov is involved in teaching non-Jews how to be good Noachides.

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/noahide_world/the_seven_mitzvot_bnei_noach.aspx?id=1902&language=english

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/noahide_world/the_noahide_focus.aspx?id=10473&language=english

‘Don’t Forget the World to Come’
The Garden of Emuna, page 38
 
Back when I was a Philosophy major one of the philosophers I studied was David Hume. He questioned everything. I mean everything, even things that no normal person would ever think to question, like causality for example. To explain how Hume could question such a thing our professor took a dusty felt eraser and pushed it along the aluminum chalk tray. We watched the eraser move along and bump up against the spare eraser, moving it forward. All you are really seeing, the professor explained, is a sequence of events- Eraser A gets really close to Eraser B. You never see the causality. We posit it. But we don’t see it. That’s what Hume thought. Although, unlike me, Hume had no use for religion, he ironically modeled the kind of diligent questioning of ‘reality’ that I feel I must engage in to stay connected to Hashem.   
 
We see everything that Hashem does, but we don’t see Him, the Cause. We see everything He created, but we don’t see Him. He created me, the brain I’m using, the fingers I’m typing with, the air I’m breathing, the gravity that is keeping me in His chair at His desk on His planet- yet I can not see Him. He is sustaining it all, all of the time, yet I can not see Him.
 
We talk to Him, but we don’t hear back, at least not in words. Our lives are a sequence of events that are designed by Him to be super physical to us, that dominate our senses, that scream for our attention. They are so real to us they seem like the end, but they are merely a means. And we are supposed to see the Cause of all of this despite the distraction of the noisy ‘this’ that He created. We are to look through the opaque objects of our senses to see something invisible. We are supposed to remember the World to Come, to put this world and everything in it to work to get us to this thing that is very challenging to even fathom for a moment.
 
Ironically, when I try to imagine the World to Come and keep it in the foreground so I won’t forget it, this world that I’m stuck in now becomes a much nicer place for me and lots of people around me. But if I focus on the stuff screaming for my attention and forget about the World I can’t really imagine and the Creator I can’t see, my life and the lives of the people around me will stink. That is the life of a religious person.
 
One of the really rewarding/not at all rewarding things about living the life of a Ben or Bat Noach is that we don’t have a culture that flows from our spiritual beliefs. If there was a way of living as a Believer back in the days of the Temple, for example, we only have the faintest, teeny, tiniest idea of what it was.  So there are no recipes passed on from grandma to grand daughter, no rituals, no artifacts. These things that connect a Jew to his or her past - or at least to some part of the tribe - we do not have. That is sad at times. And hard. To use the recipes of someone else’s grandmother feels odd. To play someone else’s games at a holiday can feel like imitation. Not so rewarding, not for me at least.
 
But like I said, in keeping with the seemingly incongruous demands that Hashem makes of us, there is a rewarding aspect to living as a Bat Noach without a culture. The trappings of culture can become things unto themselves. They can become the end instead of the means. It can become the Thanksgiving dinner where no one thinks about giving thanks. I could see myself slipping into that trap, meandering into a miasma of cultural curiosities. Then it all becomes something like pretty pictures in an issue of “National Geographic”.
 
Whatever we have in front of us can become a distraction. We can be in a synagogue, on top of a mountain, or in a grocery store. It can all be a distraction. The challenge is to see Hashem wherever we are, through good and bad, whether up or down – that’s the Noahide focus and optimal-level faith that we should all strive for. When the physical world no longer fools us, we attain real spiritual maturity. And even then, there will be new challenges and distractions. In this world we must work, that means working hard like Noah. In the World to Come, there will be plenty of time for rest.

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/noahide_world/guidelines_for_the_noahide_perplexed.aspx?id=8190&language=english

I hope that you find some useful information at these links...

muman613

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

[~Hanna~]

Thankyou Muman for all the information, I will have alot to ponder.

[muman613]

Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

Yes, they are pretty Charismatic too... 

I think you mean Chassidic... Both Lubavitch and Breslov are Chassidic strains of Judaism...

And the Breslov Rebbes are also very Charismatic... I have been watching Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rabbi Shalom Arush who both are very glowing personalities. When I see videos of the Lubavitch Rebbe I also see a glow in his face and imagine what it must have been like in his presence.

Rabbi Brody talks about Moshiach,Geula, and saving lives : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx

[q_q_]

just google Noachide.

you could contact a rabbi in your area, one that should be a bit prepared!
here i'm sure is such a list
http://www.asknoah.org/Academy.html


these is a classic book
The Rainbow Covenant: Torah and the Seven Universal Laws

and this one is too
The Path of the Righteous Gentile: An Introduction to the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah (Hardcover)
by Chaim Clorfene (Author), Yaakov Rogalsky (Author)
(FELDHEIM) <-- religious jews should know they publish quality books

[~Hanna~]

Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

Yes, they are pretty Charismatic too... 

I think you mean Chassidic... Both Lubavitch and Breslov are Chassidic strains of Judaism...

And the Breslov Rebbes are also very Charismatic... I have been watching Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rabbi Shalom Arush who both are very glowing personalities. When I see videos of the Lubavitch Rebbe I also see a glow in his face and imagine what it must have been like in his presence.

Rabbi Brody talks about Moshiach,Geula, and saving lives : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx

Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.

[q_q_]

Breslov are "charismatic" Jews like the Lubavitch, right?

Yes, they are pretty Charismatic too... 

I think you mean Chassidic... Both Lubavitch and Breslov are Chassidic strains of Judaism...

And the Breslov Rebbes are also very Charismatic... I have been watching Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rabbi Shalom Arush who both are very glowing personalities. When I see videos of the Lubavitch Rebbe I also see a glow in his face and imagine what it must have been like in his presence.

Rabbi Brody talks about Moshiach,Geula, and saving lives : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx

Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.

this whole thing really has nothing to do with noachides.

it's a particular branch of orthodox judaism.

it's really the lack of wisdom of people to bring this up when the issue is really the 7 noachide laws.

They just happen to be teaching about it quite a bit, but to start with, and even to end with, I don't think you should narrow yourself to the explanation given by a particular charismatic group. You perhaps. But it's not a logical sensible way of doing things.

[Zelhar]

I would keep away form Breslav. They are not at all like Chabad.

In fact the original Breslav chassidim (probably by now outnumbered to new joiners) are associated to (if not part of)  the ultracrazy anti-zionist "Haeda Hacharedit" from Jerusalem.

[muman613]

I would keep away form Breslav. They are not at all like Chabad.

In fact the original Breslav chassidim (probably by now outnumbered to new joiners) are associated to (if not part of)  the ultracrazy anti-zionist "Haeda Hacharedit" from Jerusalem.

Zelhar,

You are aware that Breslov is located in Jerusalem now... They are not zionist but they support Jews in Israel and they support people making Aliyah... Please provide a link supporting your claims. Chabad is more anti-Zionist than Breslov in many respects... Breslov doesnt support sending people to the diaspora rather they support bringing them back to Israel.

[Zelhar]

Muman I don't want to make a rush judgement against all Breslavs. The fact is that they are hardly (if at all) a single Chassiduth. One of their factions is lead by Rabbi Yaakov Meir Schechter, who is an anti zionist from Mea Shearim, Jerusalem. He and his followers are descendants of the original Breslav Chassidim and they don't like to recruit others to their ranks.

On the other hand, rabbi Eliezer Berland (who bacame breslav, not born into it), is actually very right winger. There is not much friendship between different factions of the Breslavs. The common thing is that they all revere Rabbi Nachman and his student rabbi Natan and study their teachings.

[q_q_]

Neither Breslov or Chabad are "dangerous" and need to be "kept away from" !

(it is possible with chabad that you don't like a particular chabad house, but then another will be fine)

You could replace the term zionist with "National Religious".  Hardcore non or anti zionists won't like that either.. the question is, what aspects of it are they for and what aspects are they against.  I think you'd find that they favour -continued- sovereignty(to protect(not endanger) jewish lives) , and an army(to protect jewish lives), and even not giving away land (to not endanger jewish lives).
All because if we don't then jewish lives will be lost.
A RZ/proper national religious, would say the above are torah mandates in themselves.
G-d actually wants us ro rule there. (may mention the RAMBAN that includes a mitzva of conquer it in every generation)  
The 1967 6 day war paralleled the bible story of Joshua's 6 day war and is a clear obvious sign that G-d wanted and wants us to conquer the land. (so, divine providence)

A fairly hardcore anti zionist might say it's a sin, and if they could remove it peacefully they would but it's not possible. The arabs would not let us just leave in peace, they would pounce. So therefore it stays. A matter of not endangering jewish lives even more.  

[muman613]

Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, not the phoney baloney secular Jewish state run by clowns like Smolmert. It is a Chillul Hashem that Jews in Israel are the pawns of America or any other power in the world. All forms of Orthodox Judaism hold disdain for the going ons in Israel today.

When I read the news in Israel sometimes I ask myself why are Jews in Israel altogether. It sometimes seems the majority of Israelis have no connection to Judaism and don't even know why they are there, the land is not Holy to them. I have a dream that when the time comes their Jewish spirit will awaken inside them and the era of Moshiach will be ushered in.

Breslov {the strain led by Rabbi Shalom Arush} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom_arush is working on bringing Moshiach and they feel that he is right around the corner. In order for the Messianic age to happen all Jews must be in Israel {the ingathering of exiles}. Although it is not your typical 'Zionist' ideology, it is the way I see Jewish history.

[q_q_]

Zelhar,

As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>

what you said there is confused.

But who is the someone that you refer to?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You perhaps. But it's not a logical sensible way of doing things.

I am so sorry, I forgot you are the only person on the forum who uses logic!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman and Tzvi, correct me if I am wrong, but do Noahides accept the whole Torah? I thought they just accept the Seven Laws.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Please explain....this Charismatic thing....cuz the Christians have Charismatic's too.....so I would like to know.

Charismatics are members of an established monotheistic, Biblical faith (Christianity or Judaism) who, albeit being theologically orthodox, are more experientially and "Spirit"--oriented than their brethren in the same faiths. They emphasize joy, celebration, G-d's love, and welcoming/outreaching to all fellow Christians and Jews more than doctrinal matters. In Christianity, the Pentecostal (like Assemblies of G-d, which is Sarah Palin's church) and Calvary Chapel denominations are "charismatic". In Judaism, the Lubavitch/Chabad and Breslov Chasidim movements are "charismatic".

One thing to note is that the charismatic Christians are especially likely to be strong Zionists.

If one wants to discuss Nazi religions, you could probably call the Sufis/Dervishes "charismatic Muslims", but I prefer not to pollute the term by applying it to devil-worship.

[q_q_]

You perhaps. But it's not a logical sensible way of doing things.

I am so sorry, I forgot you are the only person on the forum who uses logic!

KahaneBT is pretty good, and quite a regular poster on torah subjects, though he's not in this thread.

One has to be really bad to make a mess of this.. and many are really bad.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

KahaneBT is pretty good, and quite a regular poster on torah subjects, though he's not in this thread.

Nice to see some humility from you at last...

[judeanoncapta]

I would keep away form Breslav. They are not at all like Chabad.

In fact the original Breslav chassidim (probably by now outnumbered to new joiners) are associated to (if not part of)  the ultracrazy anti-zionist "Haeda Hacharedit" from Jerusalem.

Zelhar,

You are aware that Breslov is located in Jerusalem now... They are not zionist but they support Jews in Israel and they support people making Aliyah... Please provide a link supporting your claims. Chabad is more anti-Zionist than Breslov in many respects... Breslov doesnt support sending people to the diaspora rather they support bringing them back to Israel.

Very true, in fact it is almost impossible to grow a Diaspora Breslov community because as soon as they read what Rabbi Nachman has to say about the Land of Israel, they move here.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I thought Chabad were extremely Zionist.

[judeanoncapta]

Muman and Tzvi, correct me if I am wrong, but do Noahides accept the whole Torah? I thought they just accept the Seven Laws.

If you don't beleive in the prophecy of Moses, how can you accept the Seven Laws written therein?

Although if you mean accept as in "are required to keep and practice", then no. Noahides are not required to keep those commandments that were commanded by G-d through Moses to the Children of Israel.

[q_q_]

KahaneBT is pretty good, and quite a regular poster on torah subjects, though he's not in this thread.

Nice to see some humility from you at last...

I've said many times that he is quite logical, but you missed it because the threads were high level , you weren't in them.