Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 01:12:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 01:10:26 PM ---Zelhar,
As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>
--- End quote ---
what you said there is confused.
But who is the someone that you refer to?
--- End quote ---
It is clear what I said here... What is it that confuses you? According to your own statements you have said the same as I have. Religious zionists are not supportive of the secular Israel state because of their understanding of Torah. I also stated that it is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith to believe in Moshiach, and thusly believe in the ingathering of exiles which our prophets describe.
Is there any more need for clarification?
Also, the message I refered to was posted by JewishAmericanPatriot on Dec 16 @ 5:39PM
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29505.msg306732.html#msg306732
--- Quote ---<snip>
One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.
--- End quote ---
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 02:54:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:50:35 PM ---That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.
That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
--- End quote ---
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?
I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.
--- End quote ---
I would not characterize machonshilo that way.
I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.
Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.
It's like when people use the term Religious Nationalist. It gives the impression that one is fusing two different ideas, religion and nationalism. I don't want to fuse anything. I see no need to fuse. I read the Torah and I don't see two different ideas. Just one tree of life growing in the land of the living.
I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:17:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 18, 2008, 01:12:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 01:10:26 PM ---Zelhar,
As someone here in another thread posted it is common for Orthodox strains of Judaism to take up what appears to be an 'anti-zionist' stance. What this really is is opposition to a 'Secular State of Israel'. All strains of Judaism, especially Chassidic strains, are ZIONIST in the sense that they envision the future with Jews in Israel, run as a Torah state. This is what our Prophets foresaw, <snip>
--- End quote ---
what you said there is confused.
But who is the someone that you refer to?
--- End quote ---
It is clear what I said here... What is it that confuses you? According to your own statements you have said the same as I have. Religious zionists are not supportive of the secular Israel state because of their understanding of Torah. I also stated that it is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith to believe in Moshiach, and thusly believe in the ingathering of exiles which our prophets describe.
Is there any more need for clarification?
Also, the message I refered to was posted by JewishAmericanPatriot on Dec 16 @ 5:39PM
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,29505.msg306732.html#msg306732
--- Quote ---<snip>
One thing many of you youngsters might not know: for many centuries, ALL of frum Yidden were "anti-zionist". My zayde, of blessed memory, used to have many arguments with my father (also of blessed memory) over this issue. My zayde felt, as most religious Jews of his day felt, that we must wait for Moshiach to return the Jewish people to Eretz Yisroel. There is nothing wrong with holding this view.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
The only thing wrong with holding this view is that it leads directly to Auschwitz. Those leaders who hold this view lead their flocks from one disaster directly into another.
muman613:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:17:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 02:54:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:50:35 PM ---That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.
That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
--- End quote ---
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?
I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.
--- End quote ---
I would not characterize machonshilo that way.
I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.
Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.
I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.
--- End quote ---
And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.
I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:23:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:17:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 02:54:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:50:35 PM ---That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.
That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
--- End quote ---
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?
I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.
--- End quote ---
I would not characterize machonshilo that way.
I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.
Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.
I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.
--- End quote ---
And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.
I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.
--- End quote ---
Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.
As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their worldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.
Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.
They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer: OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com
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