Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
muman613:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:30:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:23:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:17:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 02:54:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:50:35 PM ---That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.
That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
--- End quote ---
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?
I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.
--- End quote ---
I would not characterize machonshilo that way.
I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.
Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.
I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.
--- End quote ---
And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.
I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.
--- End quote ---
Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.
As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their woldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.
Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.
They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer: OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com
--- End quote ---
Well personally I know my Chabad rabbi has gone to Israel several times and my Modern Orthodox Rabbi has family which lives in Israel. I share a bit of disappointment in Chabad for not being more concerned with making Aliyah but I will find you some articles from Chabad site which support the establishment of a Jewish state.
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/livingtorah_cdo/aid/56657/jewish/Aliyah-to-Israel.htm
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/524928/jewish/Were-Home.htm
I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach. As a matter of fact I heard Rabbi Lazer Brody say it in the shuir I listened to last night. He says that in the age of Moshiach all of mankind will know the glory of Hashem. It is the Jews mission to bring Hashem to the world, as this was the reason Hashem loved Abraham. Abraham brought Hashem to the pagan world and was rewarded with being the father of the Jewish nation.
http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/1.asx
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:30:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:23:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:17:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 02:54:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 02:50:35 PM ---That is why I and machonshilo.org, an organization that I am one of the founding members of, work so hard to try and convince Haredi Jews that their views are not those of the Torah.
That's why I never give up on the Anti-Zionist Jews and just call them all Rodfim, because I used to be one and therefore I know that they can be reached.
--- End quote ---
Is machonshilo like a "countercult ministry" for Judaism (i.e. it exposes and refutes heretical views)?
I don't think we should give up on them either. I don't think they are all evil like the Satmar/NK--I think most of them probably do whatever their rebbes tell them without thinking. But for sure, if they are not reached, their views are very problematic and dangerous for the state of Israel.
--- End quote ---
I would not characterize machonshilo that way.
I would simply say that anyone who reads the Bible will notice that it relates to the Israelites as a nation with a special relationship with G-d, not as a religion.
Unfortunately, this national component has fallen into disuse and machonshilo seeks to restore it to it's proper place as the underpinning of the entire system of the Torah, not as some external ideology being fused into the Torah.
I hope I have made myself understandable and not obtuse.
--- End quote ---
And my experience with both Chabad and Breslov is that they want to bring ALL of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. That is what Torah commands and that is what their rebbes are teaching.
I am very supportive of TorahAnyTime.com and have contributed twice in the last year. Many of the rebbes which they support are religious zionists and believe every word of Torahs teachings concerning settling the land of Israel. What they don't support is the secular state which currently exists and which almost everyone here admits is crooked and evil.
--- End quote ---
Chabad does not support All of Klal Yisroel together in Eretz Yisroel. The Rebbe did not support such an idea and said so openly. He was not for mass aliyah.
As far as Torahanytime.com, my point is that their woldview is only large enough to accomodate 200 or so of the commandments, not 613.
Their lack of clarity on the national underpinning of the Torah is what blinds them and causes them to reject 413 or so commandments.
They need to expand their view of Judaism or atleast advertise what they really offer: OneThirdOfTheTorahAnyTime.com
--- End quote ---
You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense. Do you know all the Rabbis on it? Do you not know the damage you would be making (both on Jews by making them discouraged) and to some gentile pupets here who will only repeat the negativity they hear here and start attaching curses to our fellow Jews and Jewish organizations just because they heard 1 Jew say something negative.
Do you want to be hahav for lashon hara (actually worse) to every single Rabbi who is on it and expecially for those who have spoken agains't giving away land, moving to Israel etc. ?
Not everyone is a zionist. Zionist has many meanings and angles by the way you look and define it. If I was a Rav 50,100 or 200 years ago, I probably would say the same thing- I would be agains't the secular zionists, and tell my community not to join them. Do you know what happened to the majority who joined them? - they eventually became them. I would of-course preach the love of the land of Israel, love of the People of Israel and the real way of loving them- making them get closer to the Torah, but I probably would tell my followers to keep a distance from the eruv rav, becuase they are tricky in the way they took Jewish souls away from Torah. (coming as the Moshiah -saying salvation already came).
Anyway everyone wants the best thing- we all agree that the goal is a Holy nation in the land of Israel, keeping the Torah, etc.
BUT the problem and the mahlokit is how do we get there?
- by the way if their are replys and I dont get back right away, it is becuase I am very bissy (finals are a killer).- Give me some time.
muman613:
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/judaism/hashkafa/who_controls_israels_destiny.aspx?id=10843&language=english
Who Controls Israels Destiny - by the Lubavitcher Rebbe
Editor’s note: The words of a true tzaddik said years ago are amazingly live and true today. The following are translated excerpts from the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s discourses from 1982, that implores the leaders of the Israeli government not to bow to international pressures, for Hashm runs the world...
At a Chassidic gathering held on Shabbos Bereishis, the Lubavitcher Rebbe focused his attention on the teaching with which Rashi begins his commentary to the Torah. The Rebbe explained that like all of Torah, this teaching should not be regarded merely as an abstract principle, but rather as a construct practically applicable throughout our nation’s history.
The same principles, the Rebbe explained, are relevant in the present age and should be employed within today’s contemporary political arena. Presenting the Torah’s ideas straightforwardly and without apology is the means to influence public opinion at present.
In this vein, we are publishing an adaptation of the Rebbe’s words with the hope that their study and their application will bring peace, security, and prosperity to the Jewish people. (Sichos In English 29 Tishrei, 5752)
Rashi’s1 First Teaching
Sequence is of crucial importance in the study of the Torah2 Giving one subject precedence over others endows it with prominence. In this vein, it is significant to note how Rashi, the commentator who seeks to reveal "the simple meaning of the Torah’s words,’’ 3begins his commentary on the Torah. Rhetorically, he asks4 why the Torah does not begin with the description of the mitzvos which the Jews were commanded to fulfill and explains that it was necessary to recount the narrative of creation and the early phases of the formation of the Jewish nation so that:
If the nations of the world tell the Jews; "You are robbers, for you have taken forceful possession of the lands of the... nations,’’ the [Jews] will reply, "The entire world belongs to G-d. He created it and He gave it to whom He saw fit.’’
Rashi associates this teaching with the verse5 "The power of His works He declared to His people,’’ emphasizing that it is not the shifting socio-economic forces in the world at large that mold the fate of our people, but rather "the power of His works.’’
Relying on the Rock of Israel
This lesson has been expressed throughout the course of our nation’s history. Even in times of persecution and oppression, when outwardly, their fate appeared to depend on the decisions of gentile powers, the Jews knew that G-d was the source of their deliverance.
This approach does not imply that we should rely on faith alone. On the contrary, the Torah obligates us to employ all the natural means at our disposal and not to rely on miracles.6 Nevertheless, the natural means which we employ cannot alone promise success, for success depends on G-d. Needless to say, an approach which reflects a lack of faith in G-d will not have positive consequences.
Our Destiny is in G-d’s Hands
This lesson is particularly relevant at the present time. The Jews must realize that their security and well-being is a matter between them and G-d alone. Even when we are in a situation where we require the generosity and favor of non-Jewish powers, they do not control the fate of our people. Our people’s destiny is dependent on "the power of His works.’’
This is the message which the Jewish people must communicate to the nations of the world -- that G-d has given us Eretz Yisrael and that He determines our security and well-being.
Relaying this message will influence world opinion, for the Torah is accepted by all nations. When the Torah’s message is communicated to them straightforwardly, without apology, they will listen.
"Wonders in All Things’’
The above is particularly relevant in the present year, 5752, for the letters of its Hebrew equivalent serve as an acronym for the Hebrew words meaning, "This will be a year of wonders in all things.’’ The previous year was described as "a year when `I will show you wonders,’ ’’7 and we saw wonders manifest throughout the world. This year the wonders will be greater and more encompassing, bringing success and prosperity for Jews in all places and particularly in Eretz Yisrael. May these wonders also include the ultimate wonder -- the coming of the Redemption and may this take place in the immediate future.
Ulli:
Basically, they are now a part of the Jewish religion.
It is imo nothing wrong with this.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:42:40 PM ---
I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.
--- End quote ---
That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.
To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.
It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.
It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.
Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.
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