Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
muman613:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:59:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:42:40 PM ---
I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.
--- End quote ---
That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.
To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.
It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.
It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.
Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.
--- End quote ---
But there are legitamite reasons people are in their situations. As much as I would love to make Aliyah I have family who would not... I think I will wait till my parents pass then I will be free to move without concern for their safety and livelihood.
I think it is not possible for every Jew to pick up and move to Israel right now. I understand the desire to move but I also am lenient when it comes to people whos circumstances are not ripe for the move.
I think it is harsh to cut off all Jews who are waiting for Moshiach to come.
PS: Did not the Jews in Mitzrayim have to wait for Moshe to come? Didn't some others try to leave Egypt and they died in the desert? Did they not have to fall to the 49th level of impurity before Hashem sent Moshe?
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 18, 2008, 03:47:23 PM ---
You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense. Do you know all the Rabbis on it? Do you not know the damage you would be making (both on Jews by making them discouraged) and to some gentile pupets here who will only repeat the negativity they hear here and start attaching curses to our fellow Jews and Jewish organizations just because they heard 1 Jew say something negative.
Do you want to be hahav for lashon hara (actually worse) to every single Rabbi who is on it and expecially for those who have spoken agains't giving away land, moving to Israel etc. ?
Not everyone is a zionist. Zionist has many meanings and angles by the way you look and define it. If I was a Rav 50,100 or 200 years ago, I probably would say the same thing- I would be agains't the secular zionists, and tell my community not to join them. Do you know what happened to the majority who joined them? - they eventually became them. I would of-course preach the love of the land of Israel, love of the People of Israel and the real way of loving them- making them get closer to the Torah, but I probably would tell my followers to keep a distance from the eruv rav, becuase they are tricky in the way they took Jewish souls away from Torah. (coming as the Moshiah -saying salvation already came).
Anyway everyone wants the best thing- we all agree that the goal is a Holy nation in the land of Israel, keeping the Torah, etc.
BUT the problem and the mahlokit is how do we get there?
- by the way if their are replys and I dont get back right away, it is becuase I am very bissy (finals are a killer).- Give me some time.
--- End quote ---
Is there a single Rabbi on that site supports building the Temple or do they think it fall out of heaven with the Moshiach riding on top of it?
As far as my non-sense, I think I was being quite rational actually and you completely missed my point about their One Third Of The Torah ideology.
As far as the Rabbis in Europe who told their flocks not to join the Zionists and move to Israel, you have danced away from the fact that their followers were mostly slaughtered as a result of their terrible advice. Can you not admit that telling your flock to stay in Europe was atleast incorrect?
And no, the Haredi world does not beleive in the Jewish people living as a Holy Nation in Eretz Yisrael.
Their goal is the simple perpetuation of Galuth Judaism. The perpetuation of the Jewish relgious culture of Poland, Hungary, Russia, Iraq, Morrocco. etc. etc.
Their goal is not their creation of a unified Holy Nation living in Eretz Yisrael nor in establish a kingdom of priests since they oppose Jewish soveignty of any kind. They love the Galuth so much, that they want us to live in it culturally forever.
Oh, unless the Moshiach walks in the door and then everything will magically change.
muman613:
Judeanoncapta,
I think you are not being fair to the Rabbis nor to their ideology.
I have heard and seen first hand that Chabad and Breslov both support moving Jews to Israel. Breslov has been in Israel for many years and they are actively working on gathering the Jews into Israel.
Do the Rabbis come out and say to build the Temple? Not exactly. But there is a reason for this. Do you think that all we need to do is build a building called the "Beit Hamikdash" and suddenly the Schechina will occupy it? I am one who thinks that more than a building needs to be constructed. I believe that the world really needs to see the hand of Hashem {like during the Exodus from Mitzrayim} and must have absolute Emmunah {Faith} before the Schechina will dwell in the Temple. If the thread wants to discuss this idea I can find Rabbis who will explain this concept.
I believe that we are falling to the low levels we did while in Mitzrayim and a redemption similar to Hashems miraculous extraction of the Jews from the nation of Mitzrayim is at hand.
--- Quote ---http://www.dvar.org.il/drbank/Tetsave.htm
Exploring this, in conclusion, the Haftora brings forward an amazing idea, that the Bnei Yisrael are actually the Beis Hamikdash (adapted from Mayanei HaTorah). Inform Bnei Yisrael of the house – the Bayis Hadash. Let them be ashamed of their sins, according to Yechezkel (43, 10). This is commenting on the use of the word ‘es’ in ‘Haged es Beis Yisrael es habayis’. He should rather have said ‘el’ Beis Yisrael. This implies that Beis Yisrael are themselves the Beis Hamikdash. It is in them that the schechina rests. The posuk says, Shachanti besocham – make for me a dwelling and I will dwell in the midst of Bnei Yisrael – in the heart of each of Bnei Yisrael. They will reach a level where they are worthy of my blessing in their midst. Then there is no doubt that they will be ashamed of their previous sins to the extent that the schechina will truly once again be able to return to their hearts.
.
.
.
That was on Shmini Atzeret, the day of judgement for the children of Israel. So we see the tremendous irony of World History. Through the Teshuva of Am Yisrael, the Beis Hamikdash will return. The bigdei Kehuna are an invitation to am Yisrael to come home to Torah, Eretz Yisrael and Olam Haba Be’Olam Hazeh. The design of the third Beis Hamikdash will conclude with the coming of Moshiach, the Teshuva for the sins that we performed during the thousands of years in Galus. They failed to take notice to the Navi’s word. The final Beis Hamikdash turned out not to be the second but the Third which was predicted even in the times of Yitzhak Avinu, with the three be’er Mayim Hayim – the 3 wells of Living Waters. The weels that he dug. The first one was called Sone, the second Esek – that they involved themselves in his business, parallel to the first Beis HaMIkdash being destroyed and the second Beis Hamikdash, and the third one was called Rehovot – which means vast expanses, in other words, the whole word will be beshlemus in the celebration of the Third Beis Hamikdash. The Maayan shel Torah explains, that this posuk comes to say that even though they did not manage to build the Beis Hamikdash in the manner he described to them, things to them, things would only change if they would change.
--- End quote ---
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:08:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 03:59:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 03:42:40 PM ---
I believe all the Rabbis I have listened to at TorahAnyTime would agree that all 613 mitzvahs will be fufilled when Moshiach comes. The question is whether or not it is time now. Some understandings have it that the Jews in Diaspora have a mission to bring the light of Hashem to the world which is also a prerequisite for the coming of Moshiach.
--- End quote ---
That is the basic problem. They think that we are commanded to do G-d's commandments when a certain person named Moshiach walks in the door. That is a perverted view. Maimonides says repeatedly in all of his works that every single commandment in incumbent upon us to do whenever we have the ability to do so.
To sit around with the ability to fulfill most of the torah and say "We cannot fulfill 413 of the commandments unless the Moshiach comes." is a strange and perverse view.
It is not Judaism. I repeat, it is not Judaism.
It is a perversion of Judaism that crept into our minds when we were powerless in the Exile. This idea throws a monkey wrench into the works of the entire Torah.
Mitzvot are incumbent upon us the moment we can fulfill them and NO LATER.
--- End quote ---
But there are legitamite reasons people are in their situations. As much as I would love to make Aliyah I have family who would not... I think I will wait till my parents pass then I will be free to move without concern for their safety and livelihood.
I think it is not possible for every Jew to pick up and move to Israel right now. I understand the desire to move but I also am lenient when it comes to people whos circumstances are not ripe for the move.
I think it is harsh to cut off all Jews who are waiting for Moshiach to come.
PS: Did not the Jews in Mitzrayim have to wait for Moshe to come? Didn't some others try to leave Egypt and they died in the desert? Did they not have to fall to the 49th level of impurity before Hashem sent Moshe?
--- End quote ---
I fully understand that every Jew cannot make aliyah in three seconds and that you cannot leave Galuth physically right now.
So leave the Galuth culturally, ideologically and spiritually. The only way is Torath Eretz Yisrael.
As far as Jews in Missrayim have to wait for Moshe to come, they were slaves held in bondage. Not professionals dwelling in Suburbia.
How could anyone even begin to compare the two?
As far as the Targum Yonathan mentioning the Bnei Efrayim who left early and were slaughtered by the Philistines. That is clearly an aggadic statement meant to calm down the rowdy Jews after the Bar Kokhba revolt. There isn't the slightest mention of this in the Torah itself and it is clearly a Midrash meant to influence behavior of the Jewish partisans who were spoiling for another fight with Rome. It is aggada and possibly not an historical event.
And no, they didn't have to fall to the 49th level of impurity for Hashem to send Moshe. It just says that if they had fallen to the 50th level, they wouldn't have been redeemed and moshe would not have been sent.
George:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 02:40:43 PM ---Isn't that a major problem, Judeanoncapta?
We all are yearning for the Israeli religious to become the majority of the nation, but how does that benefit us if most of these religious Jews are anti-Zionist, Ovadia Yosef-worshipping Agudah types who will simply parrot whatever their leaders say and would be willing to give their country away if they tell them "we ought to spare Arab lives whenever possible" and other such absurdities?
--- End quote ---
Most of these religious Jews are Zionists. This guy is a troll and shouldn't be taken seriously.
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