Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 04:48:18 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:42:55 PM ---There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...
--- End quote ---
I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".
--- End quote ---
Gentiles are not required to have a pure monotheism ie. total beleif in one indivisible omniscient creator with no other powers with him.
But then again they cannot commit idolatry and the line between the two is very fine indeed.
That is why some authorities say that Christianity is idolatry for Noahides and some say it is not.
I don't know what the truth is, because every Christian I meet seems to beleive something different. And to be honest, I have no idea to whom he is praying when he bows his head.
I don't mean to offend you, but this is what seems to me to be the reality.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 04:57:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:43:59 PM ---What I said about Chabad's position comes straight from the Rebbe's lips. Ask any Chabadnik "Did they Rebbe support Jewish people moving en masse to Eretz Yisrael?"
--- End quote ---
Judeanoncapta, I think you are probably right here (I don't know all of the particulars of Chabadism by any means), but in practice this is a technicality. The vast majority of Lubavitchim are very faithful and devout Zionists who love their brothers and sisters wherever they are, and all over the world. During the 2006 "war" with Hezbollah, who were the only rabbis joining the soldiers (regardless of what denomination of Judaism they were, or even if they were totally secular) on the battlefield while antitank missiles were falling all around them? The Lubavitch. Who are the Jews who dedicate their lives to outreach all over the world to minister to fellow Jews in all circumstances? What Jews just gave their lives in Mumbai serving the confused, lost, desperate young secular Israeli "pilgrims" who go there to dabble in Eastern thought and "find themselves"? Chabad. I guarantee you that they did not lead a comfortable life and would have done a lot better, and probably still be alive, if they were to take a position in the United States or Israel.
I think that the heart, and the life that is lived out (what Christians refer to as "the fruits of the Spirit") matter more than doctrine. Regardless of what the exact fine points are of what the Chabad technically believe about Zionism, they are amazing Jews and a true testimony to the awesome work of Hashem.
--- End quote ---
I agree with alot of what you say. I am not attacking attacking their actions. Or their doctrine,(atleast not in this thread).
I was just trying to clarify what their position is. And not allow their position to change in a way that would be untruthful.
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 18, 2008, 04:57:59 PM ---Gentiles are not required to have a pure monotheism ie. total beleif in one indivisible omniscient creator with no other powers with him.
But then again they cannot commit idolatry and the line between the two is very fine indeed.
That is why some authorities say that Christianity is idolatry for Noahides and some say it is not.
I don't know what the truth is, because every Christian I meet seems to beleive something different. And to be honest, I have no idea to whom he is praying when he bows his head.
I don't mean to offend you, but this is what seems to me to be the reality.
--- End quote ---
No, nothing that you have said is offensive. I agree that the diversity of beliefs within Christendom is mind-boggling. I know that the subject of the Trinity is very hairy, sensitive, and difficult. So, I'll just accept the answer that it might be default Noahidism and it might not.
muman613:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 04:44:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 18, 2008, 03:47:23 PM ---You do not know what you are talking about, but only talking non-sense.
--- End quote ---
Yes Tzvi, everybody except you, your Agudah Charedim friends, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who you worship, talk "nonsense". Mm-hmm.
--- End quote ---
C.F,
This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.
There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.
Harzel:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 18, 2008, 04:48:18 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 18, 2008, 04:42:55 PM ---There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...
--- End quote ---
I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".
--- End quote ---
C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument).
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