Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 19, 2008, 09:27:50 AM ---And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.
--- End quote ---
Tzvi, JNC's criticism of torahanytime is not specific to it, he would have to apply it to the majourity of orthodox jews in the world, including Chabad. Maybe DWI won't be so happy now.
Also Tzvi, I think you misunderstand rabbi mizrachi's reasons for talking about christianity and islam. It is counter-missionary and to bring jews back to judaism by showing -jews- how judaism is better. So it is not really bashing those religions. e.g. it's not like how muslims set up a website against christianity..
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 19, 2008, 10:14:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 19, 2008, 09:27:50 AM ---And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.
--- End quote ---
Also Tzvi, I think you misunderstand rabbi mizrachi's reasons for talking about christianity and islam. It is counter-missionary and to bring jews back to judaism by showing -jews- how judaism is better. So it is not really bashing those religions. e.g. it's not like how muslims set up a website against christianity..
--- End quote ---
I also know about that, I was only replying to DWI who asked why he bashes other religions.
DownwithIslam:
Look, I don't dislike Rabbi Mizrahi. In fact I think he is a wonderful man who means well but is mistaken on some issues. For instance, the reason he supports the shas party is because he thinks they are a right wing religious party who support israel. He means well but is wrong. I think he is wrong for criticism Christianity when we have real enemies in the world.
Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, I have been on the forum long enough to know that. Of course I am unhappy with that but it doesn't mean we can't work together for a good cause. I am sure me and him agree on many issues like what needs to be done to muzzies etc so I choose to discuss with him the things we agree on.
On a side issue, I always have a problem understanding how people can hate Lubavitch. Sure every group has problems but the good they do is incomparable to anyone else. No other group is willing to sacrifice so much just to make sure that people are jews no matter where in the world they are. While the Satmar are sitting in williamsburg fressing chulent and kugel, the lubavitcher are on the lebanon border, in mumbai india and man other places trying to uplift the spirit of jews around the world. No other group brings jews back to judaism on the level that lubavitch does.
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
Whatever else he has done, if he thinks it's okay to bash Christianity and not Islam only because the former poses no threat to him, he is a coward, plain and simple. And I think he has many better things to do than to proselytize to Christians (not that I think he does not have the right to do that, just that it is counterproductive to what should be his mission in the world). I will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place.
Back to Muslims: I'd like to see Rabbi Mizrahi try to convert some Muslims. As you yourself said Tzvi, it's not at all hard to refute Islam. The Koran was not codified in any official sense until about 150 years after the "prophet"'s death at minimum and at one point, according to Islamic tradition itself, there were actually FOUR competing versions of the Koran that came about at the same time and were put together by equally "competent" (or not) "companions of the Prophet"). Only one of these codices (that done by Abu Zaid) was actually chosen, and the caliph at that time (Uthman I believe) ordered all others destroyed. Or the Hadiths: out of something like 100,000 total "sayings of the Prophet", only 6,000 were selected--again out of the arbitrary whim of one of the caliphs in the 800s, or 250 years after the "Prophet"'s death. Again, the fact that Rabbi Mizrahi does not do any of this is cowardly. It is not that hard to engage Muslim leaders in "interfaith debate". It could be framed in the context of dawa (Islamic missionizing).
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 19, 2008, 02:26:36 PM ---Whatever else he has done, if he thinks it's okay to bash Christianity and not Islam only because the former poses no threat to him, he is a coward, plain and simple. And I think he has many better things to do than to proselytize to Christians (not that I think he does not have the right to do that, just that it is counterproductive to what should be his mission in the world). I will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place.
Back to Muslims: I'd like to see Rabbi Mizrahi try to convert some Muslims. As you yourself said Tzvi, it's not at all hard to refute Islam. The Koran was not codified in any official sense until about 150 years after the "prophet"'s death at minimum and at one point, according to Islamic tradition itself, there were actually FOUR competing versions of the Koran that came about at the same time and were put together by equally "competent" (or not) "companions of the Prophet"). Only one of these codices (that done by Abu Zaid) was actually chosen, and the caliph at that time (Uthman I believe) ordered all others destroyed. Or the Hadiths: out of something like 100,000 total "sayings of the Prophet", only 6,000 were selected--again out of the arbitrary whim of one of the caliphs in the 800s, or 250 years after the "Prophet"'s death. Again, the fact that Rabbi Mizrahi does not do any of this is cowardly. It is not that hard to engage Muslim leaders in "interfaith debate". It could be framed in the context of dawa (Islamic missionizing).
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Actually he does disprove islam, in many of the lectures he talks about the other world religions and disproves them easily (both islam and xtianity, etc. ).
And saying that one doesn't want to engage in debates does not make one a coward.(or even not saying it, but just not having it- and also with the case of this christian missionary, this guy came to our community and started preaching his nonsense. Eventually, thank G-d he was publicly defeated so that one wouldn't have to follow him around and see which Jews he is brainwashing and telling lies. They had this completly open debate and anyone can see the results. I dont think this guy even comes around anymore. And he was welcomed back to Beit Gavriel in forest Hills, Anytime)
Also with moslems- 1 we dont see them missionizing (and if that was the case other things would be done- probably will be more aggressive) and 2-People have to be smart, and people must take care of their life. If someone who doesn't have body guards talks agains't these fanatics, then they can be dead like rushdie (actually I remembered now that R Mizrachi did origionally talk very strongly agains't islam, but then they edited the Divine Information video, becuase it is just no worth it if it will not change anything.)
It was the same in the past with christian europe. The Rabbis would not talk strong words agains't that because they knew that they would endanger themselves and their communities. And they did what they HAD to do.
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