Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 04:12:56 PM ---What Yaakov did was different. The meeting came to him. He did not call for it. It was alone G-d's will.
--- End quote ---
You did say
"Nobody can control this spiritual beings and I really didn't see the profit in the attempt."
Jacob did beat Esau's angel in a wrestling match. That's control !!
Note- Muman still writes as if he doesn't understand that you are not jewish.. Or just assumes that you believe the judaism that he does. And that you should accept everything the anonymous rabbi told him in an unnamed talk that he gave - prob over the internet.
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 04:12:56 PM ---Perhaps G-d listens to the prayers of Zaddiks more than to the prayers of normal man, but what do you think of the banning of sorcery in the books of Moses. And I remember that Saul was killed by his enemies after he went to the female evocator to call Samuel.
Please answer me a question. What is the sense of trying to call and command spiritual beeings?
Imo the ruling of the sphere is nothing for us.
--- End quote ---
the types of sorcery are defined in our oral law.
kabbalists may say that somebody came to them in a dream or they came to somebody in a dream, and told them something.
So they may say that it's not illegal to do that
As to you searching for a reason to "command" an angel..
I would say, request something of an angel..
I'm sure that if angels have responsibilities and G-d gives them some free reign, some leverage, to do their action in the world. Then if you have an issue, you can take it up with the angel.
they plead with G-d themselves.. and do the role assigned to them.. It's then sensible to plead with them.
nobody controls or commands spiritual beings other than G-d.
it's feasible that one may request something from them, or a spiritual being does favours for somebody. Not because he is controlled or commanded like a puppet, by a person.
requesting things from angels is still dodgy terrain, because we're meant to be praying to G-d. Not other things in heaven.
Ulli:
Perhaps you have a point with Jakob. But althrough the circumstances are different from performing rituals in order to get power and control over spiritual beeings.
Yakov was choosen by God himself. Were there really another possibility of the run of this night?
P.S.: Knows Judaism the difference between demons and angels? And what is it's view about those.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 05:03:46 PM ---Perhaps you have a point with Jakob. But althrough the circumstances are different from performing rituals in order to get power and control over spiritual beeings.
Yakov was choosen by G-d himself. Were there really another possibility of the run of this night?
P.S.: Knows Judaism the difference between demons and angels? And what is it's view about those.
--- End quote ---
the bible talks of rituals that G-d wants us to do.
kabbalah is not derived from the bible. At most, there may be some verses that hint to a small bit of it..or some verss that speak of a -tiny- bit, like the idea of meditation.
i'm sure there are even some kabbalists that claim to know the anatomy of an angel or demon, I wouldn't take it too seriously. These aren't in classical judaism. Even demons are barely spoken of.
The christian new testament talks of demons apparently. But notice that the tenach doesn't.
You can go on and on asking imaginative questions, but at hte end of the day, all we have are what books themselves say. I even found something on the internet where somebody asked a rabbi why men have nipples. And he gave some wild kabbalistic answer. He obviously made it up.
Point is though, even with tenach, I don't bother asking creative questions.. I just ask what the text says. And usually it's obvious.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 15, 2009, 05:32:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 05:03:46 PM ---Perhaps you have a point with Jakob. But althrough the circumstances are different from performing rituals in order to get power and control over spiritual beeings.
Yakov was choosen by G-d himself. Were there really another possibility of the run of this night?
P.S.: Knows Judaism the difference between demons and angels? And what is it's view about those.
--- End quote ---
the bible talks of rituals that G-d wants us to do.
kabbalah is not derived from the bible. At most, there may be some verses that hint to a small bit of it..or some verss that speak of a -tiny- bit, like the idea of meditation.
i'm sure there are even some kabbalists that claim to know the anatomy of an angel or demon, I wouldn't take it too seriously. These aren't in classical judaism. Even demons are barely spoken of.
The christian new testament talks of demons apparently. But notice that the tenach doesn't.
You can go on and on asking imaginative questions, but at hte end of the day, all we have are what books themselves say. I even found something on the internet where somebody asked a rabbi why men have nipples. And he gave some wild kabbalistic answer. He obviously made it up.
Point is though, even with tenach, I don't bother asking creative questions.. I just ask what the text says. And usually it's obvious.
--- End quote ---
Angels are spoken about extensively in the Talmud, in Psalms and they are also found in the morning prayers we say daily and of course brought up famously in Tanach in the story of Abraham and the tent as well as Jacob's "wrestling with the angel of Esau".
Now whether or not people understand what these verses mean is a different story.
But the Rambam explains the concept quite beautifully. In short, angels are set forms or paradigms. Those can be good or bad. Anything in the world that works in a mechanic way without free choice such as the laws of gravity, mathematics, and different philosophies are all different examples of angles.
Many many Rabbis discouraged the study of Kabbalah simply because it uses terminology most people do not know how to decipher so learning it could easily lead to some very mistaken conclusions about things and worse.
However, from the times of the Arizal (teacher of the author of the Code of Jewish Law the Bais Yosef) on it has been established that it is now a "mitzvah to reveal this great wisdom".
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Lubab on January 15, 2009, 07:08:12 PM ---Angels are spoken about extensively in the Talmud, in Psalms and they are also found in the morning prayers we say daily and of course brought up famously in Tanach in the story of Abraham and the tent as well as Jacob's "wrestling with the angel of Esau".
Now whether or not people understand what these verses mean is a different story.
But the Rambam explains the concept quite beautifully. In short, angels are set forms or paradigms. Those can be good or bad. Anything in the world that works in a mechanic way without free choice such as the laws of gravity, mathematics, and different philosophies are all different examples of angles.
Many many Rabbis discouraged the study of Kabbalah simply because it uses terminology most people do not know how to decipher so learning it could easily lead to some very mistaken conclusions about things and worse.
However, from the times of the Arizal (teacher of the author of the Code of Jewish Law the Bais Yosef) on it has been established that it is now a "mitzvah to reveal this great wisdom".
--- End quote ---
I said demons aren't discussed in tenach.. Of course angels are.
in the talmud(a massive work) even demons get a brief mention..
your position is obviously one that kabbalah - post talmud- is true.. this is the majourity position -stated- in our times. Others, perhaps a silent majourity, just don't take it too seriously
The idea that the RAMBAM would say mathematics is an angel.. that is absolutely ridiculous. He was a very logical philosopher.
I would be very amused to see you quote him where he says that.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of talk of demons in the talmud -if- it's not a tradition from sinai.. I don't know. There are kabbalistic traditions in the talmud that are spoken of.. from sinai of course. But anything after that doesn't have the strength of the siniatic revelation
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