Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah

Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

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Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on January 26, 2009, 06:05:11 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 26, 2009, 08:43:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 26, 2009, 07:23:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 22, 2009, 11:12:48 PM ---q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

--- End quote ---

What's that got to do with kabbalah? It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead. Yes, this is a principle of our faith.

Next....

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Indeed. I will send you a thing in PM.. because the torah section here has just become a ridiculous mess.

--- End quote ---

Im taking a class on Rambam (today was the first day), the professor (is Israeli and has a Kippa on) said that in Yemen and Bavel their were big debate over his (Rambam's) beliefs, expecially over the ressurection of the dead.
I then said- but isn't it one of the 13 principles of the Rambam, and he said yes, but it's not soo simple (or something like that) and to read it inside.

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Yes, what you said is true. There was in fact a controversy over his belief about the resurrection of the dead. I've been reading it in the Rambam's letters... But be aware that what you said here in no way vindicates the original statement by one who is apparently trying to relate this idea to kabalah.

There were also many ignorant people in Rambam's day who were obsessed with kavod and they slandered the Rambam incessantly, misconstrued his opinions, misrepresented him, and/or totally misunderstood him in order that people should be discouraged from reading him. Much of the controversy was based on that. And I mean really ignorant, supposed "scholars" of the day who despised him but could not refute.

Kerber:

--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on January 15, 2009, 01:24:46 PM ---...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10ï¿½.
...
--- End quote ---
I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

muman613:

--- Quote from: Kerber on February 09, 2009, 12:08:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on January 15, 2009, 01:24:46 PM ---...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10ï¿½.
...
--- End quote ---
I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

--- End quote ---

Kerber, you do not understand Kabbalah... In Kabbalah we do not have 10 individual dieties. It is a hard to explain concept of many components which are all Hashem, but interface with this world in different ways. Kabbalah is not polytheism at all.

Kerber:

--- Quote from: muman613 on February 09, 2009, 01:06:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kerber on February 09, 2009, 12:08:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on January 15, 2009, 01:24:46 PM ---...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10ï¿½.
...
--- End quote ---
I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

--- End quote ---

Kerber, you do not understand Kabbalah... In Kabbalah we do not have 10 individual dieties. It is a hard to explain concept of many components which are all Hashem, but interface with this world in different ways. Kabbalah is not polytheism at all.

--- End quote ---
I know it's not polytheism,but I can't see the need to create a mystification of G-d's words and then a hole new philosophy as a tool for an explanations or demystification.

For example,what should be demystified in Moses' Books?That's written for uneducated Jewish shepherds so they can understand simple words and simple messages from G-d.

muman613:

--- Quote from: Kerber on February 09, 2009, 01:28:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 09, 2009, 01:06:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kerber on February 09, 2009, 12:08:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on January 15, 2009, 01:24:46 PM ---...
It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10ï¿½.
...
--- End quote ---
I don't want to interfere and argue about Kabbalah(which I consider as occultism),but I'll have to comment this.
The remark of "3 gods" you can put to Vatican's theology and their apologetic only(or Hashem's Witnesses).

PS
I haven't wrote "Hashem's",but different word started with "J".

--- End quote ---

Kerber, you do not understand Kabbalah... In Kabbalah we do not have 10 individual dieties. It is a hard to explain concept of many components which are all Hashem, but interface with this world in different ways. Kabbalah is not polytheism at all.

--- End quote ---
I know it's not polytheism,but I can't see the need to create a mystification of G-d's words and then a hole new philosophy as a tool for an explanations or demystification.

For example,what should be demystified in Moses' Books?That's written for uneducated Jewish shepherds so they can understand simple words and simple messages from G-d.

--- End quote ---

You must realize that the ideas of Torah existed before Moshe wrote them down and the ideas of Kabbalah are passed down from the days of Father Avraham. The written Torah is only part of the treasure we received at Sinai. The Talmud and the Midrash go into much further detail than the very terse and very deep Torah. There are several levels of meaning in Torah which are referred to as PaRDeS. This stands for Pshat {simple meaning}, Remes {Hint} , Drash {Moral/Philosophical interpretation}, and Sod {Hidden meaning, usually Kabbalah}.

This information is available from http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/163/Q2/

--- Quote ---
Brian Levitan wrote:

Could you please give a simple explanation with examples, of the levels of textual interpretation, referred to as PARDES. ( Pshat, Remez, Drush, Sod.)

Dear Brian Levitan,

Let's take the first verse of the Torah as our example:

1. Pshat - simplest meaning, based on the text and context. Rashi explains that pshat of the verse as follows: "In the beginning of God's creation of the heaven and the earth, the earth was desolate and void." This is based on a linguistic analysis of the word "Bereshit," which does not mean "In the beginning", but "In the beginning of..."

2. Remez - "hint." The Gaon of Vilna taught that all commands of the Torah are hinted at in the first word of the Torah. For instance, Pidyon Haben - redemption of the first-born - is alluded to by an acronym of the letters of Bereshit, which spell "ben rishon acharei shloshim yom tifdeh" - the first son you shall redeem after thirty days.

3. Drush - contextual and non-contextual, moral and philosophical explanations. Rashi states that there is a philosophical idea alluded to in the word "Bereshit." The world was created for the sake of Torah which is called "reshit," and for the Jewish people who are also referred to as "reshit." Both are "firsts" in terms of their centrality in the purpose of Creation.

4. Sod - hidden or secret meaning. Mishna: "The world was created with ten statements." Gemara: "But when you count them there are only nine statements! Bereshit (In the beginning) is also a statement." The statement of "Bereshit" was the creation of time, which is a dimension of the physical world. One of the names of G-d is "Hamakom" - "The Place" - as the Midrash explains that "He is the place of the world, the world is not His place." This concept is based on the idea that the physical world would not exist if not for G-d willing it to exist at every moment. Therefore G-d is the "Place" of the world, meaning the framework of reality in which everything exists, and He provides the possibility of existence to all of Creation. The dimension of Time and the laws of nature were created during the six days of Creation. The Sforno, The Gaon of Vilna, the Maharal, and Maimonides, all basing themselves on the Talmud, state that the hidden meaning of the word "In the Beginning" - Bereshit - is the creation of what we today call "the space-time continuum."

Sources:

* Ethics of the Fathers 5:1; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Megillah 21b
* Gaon of Vilna in Aderet Eliyahu, Bereshit 1:1; Maharal of Prague
* Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin, Nefesh Hachaim
* Maimonides, Guide for the Perplexed 2:30 (13th Century)

--- End quote ---

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