I'm curious about your opinions about the Yiddish language

[zachor_ve_kavod]

There has been a great wealth of marvelous theatre pieces and excellent literature in Yiddish.  Yiddish represents roughly the last 1,000 years of Ashkenazi culture.  It's expressive and beautiful to listen to for many Jews because it evokes memory.

On the other hand, one can look at the Yiddish language and see an exile, which was a punishment for us and a desecration of G-d's name.  In this sense, Yiddish was the language of oppression, of persecution, of Jewish weakness.

Yiddish did not so much die, as it was murdered.  Today, it is spoken in small pockets by Haredi or Chassidic communities, and is kept alive partly by academia.  Now that we are Zionists, should we continue to encourage the academic preservation of Yiddish, or should we insist that Hebrew is our Holy language, and there is no need for Jews to try to cling to a past in the exile that was hardly glorious.

Is Yiddish a language of rich Jewish culture, or is it the language of the exile and the ghetto?  Should it be preserved or even rekindled?  Should we teach it to our children?  Or write literature and plays in Yiddish?  Or should we consider it to be a reminder of Jewish weakness?

[muman613]

I am one who supports the continued teaching and learning of Yiddish. I have a relative who wrote books of Yiddish proverbs, his name was Fred Kogos.

The book he wrote is still available from Amazon @

http://www.amazon.com/1001-Yiddish-Proverbs-Fred-Kogos/dp/0806504552

From Shmear To Eternity: The Only Book of Yiddish You'll Ever Need: The Only Book of Yiddish You'll Ever Need

http://www.amazon.com/Shmear-Eternity-Only-Yiddish-Youll/dp/0806527773/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232343310&sr=1-2

A dictionary of Yiddish Slang and Idioms

http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Yiddish-Slang-Idioms/dp/0806503475/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232343310&sr=1-1

I dont know much Yiddish myself but when I was a young child I remember hearing my grandparents speak it very well.

It is a language of rich meaning and poetic in nature. I hope that it is not a dead language.

[q_q_]

zachor: I don't think we should keep teaching it.. unless people have a specialist interest.

It's -a- language of our exile, one of many.  And it's not needed anymore.

We are still in exile, and we have a language of our exile, English, that you use now because you need to. Now that's a good reason to use the language!

The important works get translated.

Enough people speak yiddish, and there will always be academics that learn - even ancient languages..  There is no logical reason to learn it and others are preserving it for emotional reasons.. It shouldn't be our concern.

Learning hebrew is enough of a job! As is studying Torah, which is all part and parcel with learning hebrew.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Thank you both.  I hoped I would get responses from you.

[muman613]

I just found the obituary for my relative Fred Kogos. I didnt realize he was from Uman.

http://www.mlucks.com/genealogy/lucks/histories/kogos_frederick_obit.jpg

Here is what it said:

"
NYT Oct 14, 1974

Fredrick Kogos, author of three books on Yiddish and the editor and publisher of apparel magazines and textbooks, died Friday of a heart attack. He was 67 years old and lived in Great Neck, L.I.

Mr Kogos, head of the Kogos Publications Company, edited and published Apparel Manufacturers magazie, 45 Apparel textbooks and a professional journal, the Apparel Securities Review.

While doing research for a column he called "Around the Apparel World with Fred Kogos", he lectured widely. from Stockholm to Capetown and from Moscow to Sydney, Australia.

Wherever he went, he found Yiddish spoken - in 77 countries, in fact. This led him to compile the "Dictionary of Yiddish Slang and Idioms".

His later books included "Instant Yiddish" and "1001 Yiddish provers". He also made a record album for pronunciation titled "Instant Yiddish".

Mr Kogos graduated from Harvard in 1929.
"

I am proud of his works and hope that more people study the Yiddish language. Of course I prefer speaking Hebrew in the holy land. This language should be kept alive because it is uniquely Jewish just as we continue to daven in Aramaic in rememberance of our exiles in Babylonia.

[IsraelForever]

I believe that Yiddish is a sacred language and should be kept alive for eternity. 

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I believe that Yiddish is a sacred language and should be kept alive for eternity. 

How is Yiddish a sacred language?  It was the language of everyday life, whereas Hebrew was the language of prayer.  Whether you are for preserving Yiddish or not, I don't see how you can make the claim that it is a sacred language.  The only sacred language as far as I know is Hebrew (or possibly Armaic).

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I believe that Yiddish is a sacred language and should be kept alive for eternity. 

How is Yiddish a sacred language?  It was the language of everyday life, whereas Hebrew was the language of prayer.  Whether you are for preserving Yiddish or not, I don't see how you can make the claim that it is a sacred language.  The only sacred language as far as I know is Hebrew (or possibly Armaic).

Let me ammend that slightly.  The only sacred language for Jews is Hebrew or possibly Armaic (if you use Armaic liturgy).  Other religions have their own sacred languages that they use.

In any event, please explain to me why you think Yiddish is a sacred language.

[q_q_]

since he didn't reply yet, you could have editted the post.

[muman613]

To make it clear, I have never said Yiddish was a holy language {Lashon HaKodesh}. It is my belief that Hebrew is the only Lashon HaKodesh.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

To make it clear, I have never said Yiddish was a holy language {Lashon HaKodesh}. It is my belief that Hebrew is the only Lashon HaKodesh.

I know you didn't make that claim.  Israelforever made that claim.  It's not a defensible claim, I think. 

q_q_, the reason I added a second post rather than edit the first post is that the first post conveys my initial reaction to the absurd statement made by Israelforever.  I initially considered editing my first post but thought better of it.  Regardless, I'd like to keep the discussion confined to the topic at hand and not delve into the metaphysical.

[IsraelForever]

I believe Yiddish became sacred when Hitler killed the 6 million Jews who spoke it.  This is just my personal belief.  I never heard this or read this anywhere. 

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I believe Yiddish became sacred when Hitler killed the 6 million Jews who spoke it.  This is just my personal belief.  I never heard this or read this anywhere. 

Interesting...Does that mean the clothes they wore became sacred as well?  Or the beds the slept in?  A language can only be considered sacred if it is used for sacred purposes, no?  Isn't that the minimal definition for a sacred language?

I think I actually do recognize some merit in what you are saying.  When the Jews of Europe were murdered (may
G-d avenge their blood), so too was their culture and language (almost entirely) murdered.  So, you can argue that it is good to attempt to preserve that.  Remembering the dead is important, so possibly remembering their language is important.  But you should not then make that language into something that it was not.  The memory of the Jews may be sacred, the language was not, and is not.

[IsraelForever]

After 6 million Jews were wiped out, it is my personal belief that their whole way of life became sacred... just as ground can become "sacred" where thousands die.  Some speak of the the ground where the Twin Towers stood as "sacred".  It certainly becomes "hallowed" ground.  For me (and I'll bet for many people here), the Yiddish language is now "sacred".  How would you feel if the English language were wiped out by the Muslims.  (Just suppose)  You wouldn't care?  Would the six million be happy to know that their language was wiped from this earth as well?  As far as I'm concerned, in their memory, and for their memory, their language is sacred.

[q_q_]

The important thing was their jewish way of life..

A few gedolim that escaped , came to britain and america and rebuilt here, the judaism of poland.. "yiddishkeit"!

[IsraelForever]

Correct... "yiddishkeit".  And you can't take the "yiddish" out of "yiddishkeit".  May G-d forbid that the language of the six million be destroyed or become extant. 

[q_q_]

Correct... "yiddishkeit".  And you can't take the "yiddish" out of "yiddishkeit".  May G-d forbid that the language of the six million be destroyed or become extant. 

Yiddishkeit is the judaism of poland and germany.. and so on.

You can take the yiddish out of it. Studying in hebrew and your native language.. Many jews are of that tradition, but not speaking yiddish.

I am guessing that
Eim Habanim Semeichah: on Eretz Yisrael, Redemption, and Unity, by Harav Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal

Was written in hebrew. It is translated into English.

That really reflects the judaism of the time, the -huge- respect bestowed upon rabbis.. the same judaism most people practice today though more exaggerated perhaps. More devout. It lives regardless of native language. And it carried to britain and america.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

After 6 million Jews were wiped out, it is my personal belief that their whole way of life became sacred... just as ground can become "sacred" where thousands die.  Some speak of the the ground where the Twin Towers stood as "sacred".  It certainly becomes "hallowed" ground.  For me (and I'll bet for many people here), the Yiddish language is now "sacred".  How would you feel if the English language were wiped out by the Muslims.  (Just suppose)  You wouldn't care?  Would the six million be happy to know that their language was wiped from this earth as well?  As far as I'm concerned, in their memory, and for their memory, their language is sacred.

I disagree with you.  Perhaps we define "sacred" differently.  To me, something is sacred if it is used for sacred purposes.  Memory may be sacred.  I'll agree with that.  Honouring the dead is sacred.  But ask a Yiddish speaker if he thinks that his language is a sacred language.  I'll bet he would say no.  So you may say that remembering Yiddish is part of the sacred act of remembering and honouring the dead.  But not Yiddish itself.  Do you see the difference?

Also, while I'm at it, let me add that I remember the holocaust as a horrific desecration of G-d's name and something that I would fight to the death to prevent from ever happening again.  I remember and honour those Jews.  But I do not honour Jewish weakness.  Jews belong in Israel as a strong and proud group, devoted to G-d.  Yiddish was the language of Jews who lived as an oppressed people, far away from the land they belonged to.  To me, Yiddish is a pleasant part of an unpleasant history.  I remember it that way.  But I want Jews to now focus on Jewish strength, which sanctifies G-d's name.  

Remember that Yiddish was a pidgin language that was 75% German in origin, and that only came into existence by Jews being segregated in the ghettos.  Ironically, Yiddish itself is proof of Jewish oppression.  How can that possibly be considered sacred?  

[IsraelForever]

Rather than repeat myself over and over, let me close out here by saying that you certainly have a right to your opinion about the Yiddish language.  But let me finish with this:  If all the Jews in Europe all spoke Swahili, wrote great books in Swahili, discussed Torah in Swahili, celebrated birthdays, weddings, Bar Mitvahs, Brises, and anniversaries in Swahili, and then they and their entire culture were wiped out by Hitler, then I would say that Swahili (regardless of whether it was their language due to oppression) would become sacred.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Rather than repeat myself over and over, let me close out here by saying that you certainly have a right to your opinion about the Yiddish language.  But let me finish with this:  If all the Jews in Europe all spoke Swahili, wrote great books in Swahili, discussed Torah in Swahili, celebrated birthdays, weddings, Bar Mitvahs, Brises, and anniversaries in Swahili, and then they and their entire culture were wiped out by Hitler, then I would say that Swahili (regardless of whether it was their language due to oppression) would become sacred.

They spoke Yiddish, wrote great books in Yiddish, discussed Torah in HEBREW, celebrated birthdays in Yiddish, conducted Bar Mitzvahs, Brises, and the ENTIRE liturgy in HEBREW.  They conducted secular life in Yiddish and their sacred lives in the ONLY sacred language for Jews:  Hebrew.  So, let me close this conversation by saying that your characterization of Yiddish as a sacred language is entirely incorrect.  You are trying to defend a position that is not even remotely debatable.  You are talking nonsense.

[Ben Yehuda]

Tzvay yidn. drei meinungen.

[Vito]

Just learn German and throw a little Hebrew and Russian in it and bam, you've got Yiddish!  Oye!

[judeanoncapta]

Just learn German and throw a little Hebrew and Russian in it and bam, you've got Yiddish!  Oye!

Very true.

One time I was flying Luftansa and was speaking with my friend in Yiddish and the German stewardess understood me and addressed me in German for the rest of the flight.

[Vito]

Just learn German and throw a little Hebrew and Russian in it and bam, you've got Yiddish!  Oye!

Very true.

One time I was flying Luftansa and was speaking with my friend in Yiddish and the German stewardess understood me and addressed me in German for the rest of the flight.

That makes sense, it's about 80% German.

[Ulli]

Just learn German and throw a little Hebrew and Russian in it and bam, you've got Yiddish!  Oye!

Very true.

One time I was flying Luftansa and was speaking with my friend in Yiddish and the German stewardess understood me and addressed me in German for the rest of the flight.

That makes sense, it's about 80% German.

I understand nearly everything, because there are a lot of words with hebrew origin that were used in the German language of the 18th and 19th century that are Yiddish. Because I have a lot of older books and I read nearly daily I know the meaning.

Here on the forum I was able to follow the discussions very well.

Yiddish sounds like ancient German.  But I doubt that uneducated Germans - the MTV generation - will understand it well. Normally they have even problems with so called broken fonts, like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur_(script).

They are even not able to read an ancient bible. I have often requests from customers, that buy older books about the font and the language.

There are different levels of the development of German language.

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift

It is really intresting, that Germans didn't have had a common language before the 16th century. This is prooving my thesis, that Germany as a language entity didn't exist so long and didn't exist as a cultural entity even today.

Different dishes, different confession, different values all over this country. Perhaps Germany is in some ways like Palestina.