Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Intermarriage
muman613:
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on April 09, 2009, 08:46:25 PM ---I highly doubt that Esther was married to Mordechai. Mordechai was her uncle who had adopted her as his daughter. But if the king wanted her to be his wife, there wasn't really much she could do about it. If it was her choice she probably would have married a Jewish man.
--- End quote ---
Then why do you think the Talmud tells us that they were married? Do you think the Talmud is not a part of the Jewish Tanakh?
http://www.jewishmag.com/88mag/esther/esther.htm
--- Quote ---Esther, How Could She Do It?
Greg Elderberg
The Esther who saved the Jews by pleading with King Achasverous has become a stereotype for Jewish heroines. This is especially apparent on Purim when most young Jewish girls who dress up in costumes choose by a large majority to be "Queen Esther".
But in reality there is much to be considered when we recall the story of Esther. Especially in regards to the Talmud in the Tractate of the Megillah, page 13a, where the famous Rabbi Meir explains that Esther was in reality the wife of Mordecai.
Rabbi Meir was one of the greatest of the Rabbis from the Talmud. We can not ignore his remarks. There are implications to what he says that we must deal with as we will shortly relate.
The story of Esther tells us that after King Achasverous had Queen Vashti killed, his advisors made a competition between the young unmarried women to find the most beautiful and desirous person to become his queen. Although the contest was originally intended to include only unmarried women, Achasverous was not particular if the woman was married; to him her attractiveness was the most important factor. If the women had a husband, he would be gotten rid of easily. It was for this fear, that Esther did not declare to the authorities that she was married to Mordecai.
Esther was taken into the competition. Unlike the other girls who busied themselves with pretentious clothing and cosmetics to appeal to the eye of the king, Esther asked for nothing and went in to the king as she was - a beautiful soul. The king fell in love with Esther and immediately declared that only Esther was worthy of becoming his queen.
Esther refused to tell the king of her heritage or that she was married.
At this point we must ask the question that bothered the rabbis in the Talmud. If Esther was married to Mordecai, then sexual relations between a man and a married woman are forbidden. How could Esther who was considered a great Jewish personality live with Achasverous if she was married to Mordecai?
There are three cardinal sins: Promiscuity, Idolatry, and Murder. It is forbidden to commit one of these three cardinal sins even at the expense of one's own life. If a person is put into a position in which he is forced to commit one of these three cardinal sins, then he must sacrifice his life rather than trespass.
As an example, if a group of thugs come to a man and tell him they will kill him unless he has sexual relations with this specific married woman; he is not allowed to have sex with her. He must let himself be killed rather than sin.
Similarly, if a group of idolaters come and tell him that if he does not bow down to an idol he will be killed, he must not bow down to the idol, but rather let them kill him. There are some who say that this only applies if ten Jews are present.
The third cardinal sin is that of murder. If a group of thugs come and tell a man that he must kill another person, he must decline even though it means that they will kill him.
Esther presents a serious problem. How could she have sexual relations with Achasverous? According to Rabbi Meir she was married to Mordecai at the time!
The rabbis in the Talmud explain that Esther was not active. She was passive. It was Achasverous who was active; Esther had no choice. Had she resisted his advances she would have faced the same death that Vashti faced.
This is similar to the case of a rapist who comes upon a married woman. If the married woman is unwilling to have relations with him, but rather is forced, she is still permitted to her husband. It is only in the case of a married woman who is desirous of extra-marital relations, that she is forbidden to her husband and according to Jewish law faces the death penalty.
Until this point Esther was not guilty of a sin. Her relations with Achaverous were always when he called her.
The real question comes later when Esther and Mordecai discover Haman's wicked plot to kill all of the Jews. At Mordacai's insistence Esther is instructed to go to King Achasverous to intervene on the behalf of the Jewish people.
The rabbis in the Talmud note that until now Esther never when to Achasverous of her own volition. Rather, she would only go if he called for her. Because of this, she was considered a forced woman. However now that she must take the initiative to go to him, she leaves the category of being forced into relations with Achasverous. She now is considered consenting to be with him. This is eluded in the words that Esther says, "I will go into the king, not in accordance to the law, and as I am lost, so, I must be lost." (Esther 4:16) Esther in effect is saying to Mordecai that she realizes that what she is doing is not correct, and she stands the possibility of being totally lost forever to Mordecai, but she has not other choice.
The rabbis explain that this is called a sin for the sake of heaven. When people sin, they do it in order to derive some personal benefit. In this case, Esther sinned, but not for her own benefit, but for the benefit of the entire Jewish nation. This is considered a case of "mesirat nefesh", giving one's total being over for the sake of the glory of G-d.
This was the price that Esther had to pay to save the Jewish people. She was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of others. From this selfless act, she secured a place in the hearts and souls of all the Jewish people for all time. However, she became forbidden to her real husband, Mordecai for ever. Such was the self sacrifice that made her the all time Jewish heroine.
--- End quote ---
muman613:
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on April 10, 2009, 12:18:31 PM ---No, the Talmud is not part of the Jewish Tanach. Tanach is an abbreviation, which means Torah, Nevi'im, and Ktuvim--The Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, referring to the books of the Hebrew Bible. Rabbis saying something in the Talmud doesn't make it true, and the Tanach trumps the rabbis. If you want proof of this, look at how many rabbis make contradictory rulings where we have to choose to follow one or the other. Fortunately there are enough of them out there that not all of them make incorrect assertions, so we can follow the ones who are correct. Also, the book of Esther says that the beauty contest that Esther won was only for virgins. If she was married to Mordechai she couldn't be a virgin.
--- End quote ---
Torah is composed of two parts, the Written Torah and the Oral Torah of which the Talmud, the Midrash the Mishna and the Gemora are a part of...
Check out this site:
http://www.closetotorah.com/archives/924
--- Quote ---
…והנערה יפת תואר וטובת מראה ובמות אביה ואמה לקחה מרדכי לו לבת (אסתר ב:ז)
The girl (Esther) possessed a beautiful appearance… and when her parents died, Mordechai took her as his daughter (Esther 2:7)
Chazal tell us (Megilla 13a) that the word “bas, daughter,” in this verse is to be read as “bayis, house,” meaning that in actuality Mordechai took Esther as his wife.
There are many lessons inherent in our verse, let us examine some of them as we attempt to resolve the many difficulties found in understanding this verse.
The Numerous Issues
The first problem is, why does the verse describe Esther as being taken as a daughter if it really means wife, why not just say wife?! Also, according to Chazal’s elucidation, how do we explain the word “bayis, house” this is a strange reference to marriage as well?
Let us site an additional source that is hard to understand as it will ultimately shed much light on this important topic. The Gemara (Sotah 12a) states, “he who marries a women for the sake of Heaven is considered to have given birth to her as his daughter.” At first glance, this statement seems perplexing and hard to understand. What are Chazal trying to teach us? What does it mean to marry L’shem Shamayim, for the sake of Heaven? What is the parable and benefit of considering her to be his daughter?! Very perplexing?!
The commentators are surprisingly silent on many of these issues. One line from the Ben Ish Chai, though, opens up the gates of understanding for us. He connects this Gemara to another statement of Chazal (Bava Basra 141a). “If your first child born is a daughter, this is a good sign for your children who follow!”
He ends by stating that if one marries a woman for the sake of Heaven, then her presence makes it as if you gave birth to a daughter first and thus it is good for your children who follow. This is his answer! But what does it mean?
This completes all of our quandaries regarding many cryptic words; now we will try to find a proper explanation!
--- End quote ---
PS: I have not heard a single Rabbi contradict the statement that Esther was Mordechais wife. I have heard this year after year. It is not a new idea... If you can find a Rabbi which refutes this, please provide a link...
More information @
http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class23.html
http://www.jewishmag.com/30MAG/esther/esther.htm
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask228.htm#Q3
http://www.aish.com/purimthemes/purimthemesdefault/Darkness_Before_the_Dawn.asp
http://www.aish.com/purimbasics/purimbasicsdefault/Lively_Megillah_Overview.asp
muman613:
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on April 10, 2009, 12:31:28 PM ---Torah in the Tanach is talking about the five books of Moses. I do acknowledge that there is an Oral Torah, but what you have posted is one commentary. There could be no instruction from Sinai that concerned Esther since her story happened much later. And it is obvious that they are taking a word out of context. בת means daughter, not house.
--- End quote ---
Read this, it explains how this meaning is derived...
http://www.closetotorah.com/archives/924
--- Quote ---To Put It All Together
We now understand what it means to marry for the sake of Heaven. To see marriage as an opportunity for growing and encouraging Avodas Hashem together! To appreciate how Hashem created her from his bone and heart so that they can connect! As the Raavad writes, “the beauty of marriage is to be like one single body and entity, connected and working together.”
The Maharal (Ohr Chadash p. 114) states that this is what it means by “if one marries L’Shem Shamayim, she is like your daughter.” A daughter is built from you, she is an extension of you. The Torah wants you to view your wife as an extension of yourself. This is the most productive and beneficial outlook. It is meant in the most positive way, to be truly connected and close.
This is the exact meaning of marrying for the sake of Heaven and the explanation and benefit of considering her your daughter, your connection!
Our original verse is stating this as well. The verse began by stating that Esther was a most beautiful and attractive young lady! We know that her looks and charm even made her the winner of Achashvayrosh’s beauty contest. But this was not the sole focus of Mordechai. He married her for her qualities. She was someone to work and grow with. He viewed her as his daughter, an extension of himself, fulfilling Hashem’s plan for marriage!
What is the Bayis?
But still why do Chazal use the word bayis, house? The answer is that this ties everything together!
The Gemara quoted by the Ben Ish Chai stated that when a girl is born first this is good for the children who follow. He stated that if you marry L’Shem Shamayim you are considered to have had a daughter first already. What does this all mean?!
The Gemara there explains the benefit of this firstborn girl. As the oldest, she will care for and nurture all of her siblings under her! This is the benefit for her family! They will have a second loving and caring mother!
There is nothing that a parent would not do for their child. So if one asks what is the most important thing that I can do for can my children to prepare them for success? The answer is: the best thing you can do for your children is, love their mother! When children grow up in a warm and healthy environment this puts them at a great advantage for life!
If two people marry L’Shem Shamayim, to grow with their spouse in service of Hashem, they have shown that they will work together and be kind and considerate towards each other. They realize that she is his daughter, connected as one! Hence, they will work hard to have marital harmony. They will have the benefit of a loving and nurturing mother for she will be happy and encouraged by her husband who loves and believes in her. Their children will benefit from the “firstborn daughter” who cares for them so affectionately and carefully! A truly heartwarming and inspirational home! This I believe is the intention of the Ben Ish Chai and this I believe brings everything together.
Because she is the bas, they will have a beautiful bayis! May we all achieve these beautiful goals! The opportunity to live with this perspective is available every day!
--- End quote ---
muman613:
Orthodox Judaism accepts Talmud as Holy writing. It is a part of Torah. Do you study from a Rabbi? If so could you please tell me what Orthodox Rabbi is teaching that Talmud is not Kadosh?
PS: Technically Talmud is not a part of Tanakh because it refers only to written Torah. But the term Torah {Teachings} encompasses all of Torah including the Oral tradition, without which there would be no way to observe Jewish tradition because Written Torah does not contain the HOW-TO achieve the mitzvot.
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/14-27_Why_Did_Esther_Hide_Her_Jewish_Identity_-_2.htm
Adrian Wainer:
--- Quote from: muman613 on April 10, 2009, 11:40:39 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on April 09, 2009, 08:46:25 PM ---I highly doubt that Esther was married to Mordechai. Mordechai was her uncle who had adopted her as his daughter. But if the king wanted her to be his wife, there wasn't really much she could do about it. If it was her choice she probably would have married a Jewish man.
--- End quote ---
Then why do you think the Talmud tells us that they were married? Do you think the Talmud is not a part of the Jewish Tanakh?
http://www.jewishmag.com/88mag/esther/esther.htm
--- Quote ---Esther, How Could She Do It?
Greg Elderberg
The Esther who saved the Jews by pleading with King Achasverous has become a stereotype for Jewish heroines. This is especially apparent on Purim when most young Jewish girls who dress up in costumes choose by a large majority to be "Queen Esther".
But in reality there is much to be considered when we recall the story of Esther. Especially in regards to the Talmud in the Tractate of the Megillah, page 13a, where the famous Rabbi Meir explains that Esther was in reality the wife of Mordecai.
Rabbi Meir was one of the greatest of the Rabbis from the Talmud. We can not ignore his remarks. There are implications to what he says that we must deal with as we will shortly relate.
The story of Esther tells us that after King Achasverous had Queen Vashti killed, his advisors made a competition between the young unmarried women to find the most beautiful and desirous person to become his queen. Although the contest was originally intended to include only unmarried women, Achasverous was not particular if the woman was married; to him her attractiveness was the most important factor. If the women had a husband, he would be gotten rid of easily. It was for this fear, that Esther did not declare to the authorities that she was married to Mordecai.
Esther was taken into the competition. Unlike the other girls who busied themselves with pretentious clothing and cosmetics to appeal to the eye of the king, Esther asked for nothing and went in to the king as she was - a beautiful soul. The king fell in love with Esther and immediately declared that only Esther was worthy of becoming his queen.
Esther refused to tell the king of her heritage or that she was married.
At this point we must ask the question that bothered the rabbis in the Talmud. If Esther was married to Mordecai, then sexual relations between a man and a married woman are forbidden. How could Esther who was considered a great Jewish personality live with Achasverous if she was married to Mordecai?
There are three cardinal sins: Promiscuity, Idolatry, and Murder. It is forbidden to commit one of these three cardinal sins even at the expense of one's own life. If a person is put into a position in which he is forced to commit one of these three cardinal sins, then he must sacrifice his life rather than trespass.
As an example, if a group of thugs come to a man and tell him they will kill him unless he has sexual relations with this specific married woman; he is not allowed to have sex with her. He must let himself be killed rather than sin.
Similarly, if a group of idolaters come and tell him that if he does not bow down to an idol he will be killed, he must not bow down to the idol, but rather let them kill him. There are some who say that this only applies if ten Jews are present.
The third cardinal sin is that of murder. If a group of thugs come and tell a man that he must kill another person, he must decline even though it means that they will kill him.
Esther presents a serious problem. How could she have sexual relations with Achasverous? According to Rabbi Meir she was married to Mordecai at the time!
The rabbis in the Talmud explain that Esther was not active. She was passive. It was Achasverous who was active; Esther had no choice. Had she resisted his advances she would have faced the same death that Vashti faced.
This is similar to the case of a rapist who comes upon a married woman. If the married woman is unwilling to have relations with him, but rather is forced, she is still permitted to her husband. It is only in the case of a married woman who is desirous of extra-marital relations, that she is forbidden to her husband and according to Jewish law faces the death penalty.
Until this point Esther was not guilty of a sin. Her relations with Achaverous were always when he called her.
The real question comes later when Esther and Mordecai discover Haman's wicked plot to kill all of the Jews. At Mordacai's insistence Esther is instructed to go to King Achasverous to intervene on the behalf of the Jewish people.
The rabbis in the Talmud note that until now Esther never when to Achasverous of her own volition. Rather, she would only go if he called for her. Because of this, she was considered a forced woman. However now that she must take the initiative to go to him, she leaves the category of being forced into relations with Achasverous. She now is considered consenting to be with him. This is eluded in the words that Esther says, "I will go into the king, not in accordance to the law, and as I am lost, so, I must be lost." (Esther 4:16) Esther in effect is saying to Mordecai that she realizes that what she is doing is not correct, and she stands the possibility of being totally lost forever to Mordecai, but she has not other choice.
The rabbis explain that this is called a sin for the sake of heaven. When people sin, they do it in order to derive some personal benefit. In this case, Esther sinned, but not for her own benefit, but for the benefit of the entire Jewish nation. This is considered a case of "mesirat nefesh", giving one's total being over for the sake of the glory of G-d.
This was the price that Esther had to pay to save the Jewish people. She was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of others. From this selfless act, she secured a place in the hearts and souls of all the Jewish people for all time. However, she became forbidden to her real husband, Mordecai for ever. Such was the self sacrifice that made her the all time Jewish heroine.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---There are three cardinal sins: Promiscuity, Idolatry, and Murder. It is forbidden to commit one of these three cardinal sins even at the expense of one's own life. If a person is put into a position in which he is forced to commit one of these three cardinal sins, then he must sacrifice his life rather than trespass.
--- End quote ---
Is the concept of cardinal sins Jewish? In so so far as I know, promiscuity and idolatry are trumped by the requirement to preserve life, so for example it would be legitimate to engage in promiscuity and idolatry, if a Jewish girl needed to engage in both promiscuity and idolatry in order to infiltrate the SS during World War II she would be allowed to do that under Jewish law. As for murder, when is murder justifiable homicide?
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
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