Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
I'm troubled please help
muppet:
Sorry all I tried to find the link and have failed.
Muman what proof do you have, could you please elaborate.
If this is the feeling then there's nothing I can do about it. It will be pretty hard for me to bring others that believe over to defend and back the Jewish against the plague that draws ever closer everyday seeing as this is how Christians are seen.
Oh well cheers thank you for your openness that much is sincerely appreciated.
Bye
Spectator:
--- Quote from: muppet on June 03, 2009, 02:35:07 AM ---
If this is the feeling then there's nothing I can do about it. It will be pretty hard for me to bring others that believe over to defend and back the Jewish against the plague that draws ever closer everyday seeing as this is how Christians are seen.
--- End quote ---
Judaism never disregards a person because he follows Christianity or any other religion. It is true that the Jews do not believe in Christianity. But we judge people according to what they do and not by what they believe.
If Christian missionary tries to convert Jews to his religion, this is definitely bad, because this leads the Jews to breaking G-d's will. In all other cases we don't have anything against Christians.
We can be friends as ordinary people, our states can have strategic relations. There is nothing personal or chauvinistic in our inacceptance of other religions.
From our side, we don't try to convert anyone to Judaism or to impose our values in any other form. We respect personal and national self-determination.
Spectator:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 02, 2009, 07:44:22 PM ---I definately believe he is not Moshiach, nor is he G-d... He was a misguided individual who lead many, many astray. His 'religion' is the religion of Essau, the enemy of the Jewish people.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: muppet on June 03, 2009, 02:35:07 AM ---Muman what proof do you have, could you please elaborate.
--- End quote ---
It is quite possible that you are NOT talking about the same person. There is a common understanding in Judaism that there is nothing common between Jesus Christians believe in and Yeshu mentioned in Jewish sources. The Rabbis say that Christian Jesus never existed and his personality and biography was invented by Apostle Paul. This was done because old pagan worldview was in crisis and couldn't give a hope to people anymore.
I understand that such explanation may seem insulting to some Christians.
But Christianity's attitude to Judaism may as well seem insulting to some Jews.
In short, Christianity states that Judaism is outdated/overruled and Judaism states that Christianity is artificial.
I only don't understand why people of both religions should take it personally. There is still much common between the two religions. Christians say "don't kill" and Jews say "don't kill". Christians say "don't steal" and Jews say "don't steal"..
We can be friends as ordinary people, our states can have strategic relations. And let evreyone believe in what he believes.
Harzel:
--- Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2009, 04:49:26 PM ---Moshe I don't know who it was. I was listening to him then when he exploded I kind of lost perspective of the clip.
I will however endeavor to try and find this clip tonight when I come home from work.
MSD after reading the bible, yes I grew up with it as a child but only recently have taken it upon myself to thoroughly read it.
But the one thing that strikes me in the bible and that doesn't make sense.. If Jesus wasn't all that he was cracked up to be why did his Disciples and followers follow him to their deaths?
--- End quote ---
Lots of self proclaimed prophets of some sort had disciples following them to death. What about Jim Jones, wasn't he all cracked up and yet people followed him to their death ?
--- Quote ---If he wasn't true and what he did wasn't true wouldn't it of been easier for others to save their own backsides, denounce him and live prosperous lives?
To me if a person is willing to forsake their own lives suffer much brutality and torture then there 'HAS' to be substance. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
--- End quote ---
There is no correlation between peoples choices to follow a faith and the actual truth behind their faith.
--- Quote ---The other take is that if it wasn't for Jesus then today there would be Judaism, Paganism and the other Paganism (Islam). There probably wouldn't be any Jews left because the West as we know it would either be Pagan believers or Islamic (Pagan) believers.
Another HUGE downside to no Jesus would be why would Pagans feel a sense of responsibility or feeling to take in or seek justice for the wrongdoings against Jews.
The more I study about Jesus the more I see the overall importance of him coming into the World.
--- End quote ---
There is no question Jesus is a big 'player' on the stage of history. However, I don't think Christianity's net contribution to the world is positive. Western civilization sure did, but I am not at all convinced it was because of religion.
msd:
--- Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2009, 04:49:26 PM ---MSD after reading the bible, yes I grew up with it as a child but only recently have taken it upon myself to thoroughly read it.
--- End quote ---
That's good! I've only read the Gospels and the Torah, and a few of the writings (Ecclesiastes, which was actually the book that brought me back to a faith in God).
--- Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2009, 04:49:26 PM ---But the one thing that strikes me in the bible and that doesn't make sense.. If Jesus wasn't all that he was cracked up to be why did his Disciples and followers follow him to their deaths?
If he wasn't true and what he did wasn't true wouldn't it of been easier for others to save their own backsides, denounce him and live prosperous lives?
To me if a person is willing to forsake their own lives suffer much brutality and torture then there 'HAS' to be substance. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
--- End quote ---
There is substance. Jesus was a Jew and taught others to believe in God. He taught many good things, such as in his Sermon on the Mount. But loving a man to the point that you give your life for him is evidence of idolatry for that man, I think.
You may be interested in this man's books:
http://www.amazon.com/Geza-Vermes/e/B000AP7RS8/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1
You say, "if what he did wasn't true." You're probably talking about the miracles. In Jewish tradition, a wicked man may practice miracles, even though they come from God; it's not proof of him being divine or on God's side. God sometimes tests people and Jesus has been seen as a great tempter (to lead Jews astray from the faith).
However, Jesus did say that no jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Presumably not all has been fulfilled, so this means that the Law (the Torah) is still supposed to be practiced by Jews according to Jesus.
But there are too many heretical things written in the Gospels for it to be true. For instance, at the end of Matthew it says that all power in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus. Do you really believe this?
This is why Jews (and Mohammedans) believe that the Trinity idea is polytheistic, because Jesus is spoken of as having prayed to G-d, then received omnipotent powers from him, etc. Plus there is that admonition that saying anything against the Holy Spirit is a blasphemy that can't be forgiven -- as far as I know, all sins can be forgiven in Judaism.
There's a lot of "subtle" differences like this. I could continue writing on and on about it (my background is Methodist, my family upbringing).
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version