Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Jewish hero convicted of murder
davkakach:
--- Quote from: NeverMore on September 12, 2006, 01:10:56 PM ---i cant see where do you disagree with me. of course, accept for the insults you said to me about me being helenized and crap like that. dont boast so much on knowing the torah. you must be first righteous to claim you are Jewish, and not to be so snobish about you knowing the TORAH better than me. you surely dont know JUDAISM better than me, thats for sure. if you say that you want to kill ALL arabs, ALL muslims, you are no better than the MUSLIMS themselves. its definately not JEWISH to wans such things. unless you dont want to kill all arabs, but only those who want to kill you and destroy Israel. in such case, we won't have any special disagreements.
remember, we hate the kuran for preaching to kill and destroy, and here i see you suggesting the same for the arabs, who are not ALL bad. so you cant wish death to ALL and still claim its JUDAISM's way.
no matter how much Torah you know, Talmud and so on, you can never claim to be a REAL Jew, just like G-d wanted you to be, if you wish innocent people to DIE. i say innocent, because at least 0.000001% of them are so, at least one arab is innocent, enough not to want to kill them ALL.
you can wish to FIGHT them all, because as a PEOPLE they seek for your destruction, but when fighting them, you must try not to kill anypne innocent. thats G-d's way, you know why? because G-d, the way Jews see him, is MORAL. you must, as i said before, bomb for example a katiusha which is firing among crowds of people, but you MUST NOT bomb a marketplace for example, unless there is threat from is (terrorists, stuff like that).
i cant see how bombing innocent people isnt cruelty? can you explain me that? i mean if they dont stand in the way or dont pose any threat. like, you see an arab walking in the street and come to stab him- i mean these things. you call thi JEWISH??
cant be so. never.
you must feel Judaism in the heart, and not just boast that you are so smart about Torah and Talmud.
--- End quote ---
I will be the first person to tell you that I am not a very good Jew. And all the
negative adjectives I employed were meant to describe your currently-held views,
NOT you as a person. Again, this perverted logic you employ, "If we want to kill
them all, we are no better than they" betrays the extent to which Western,
hellenized, liberal ideas are entrenched in your mind.
Most rabbis nowadays (even the crappy ones) agree that Yishamel (the Arabs)
are Amalek, from a Halachic point of view, because they want to annihilate
us. The divine decree for Amalek is complete destruction. We are commanded
by God to wipe out Amalek completely, which means killing men, women
and children (now you're really starting to sweat, eh?). Not living a single living
Amalekite.
Nevertheless, this decree is not against a race, but against an ideology.
There are a few Arabs who are Christians or atheists, who are not only peaceful
towards Israel, but are actually Zionists who defend Israel, and who devote their
entire lives to defending Israel. Two prominent Zionist Arabs that come to mind
are Walid Shoebat (ex-terrorist) and Brigitte Gabriel (look them up on Google).
Surely, a Kahanist regime would never harm such righteous gentiles. But when
it comes to Islam, the decree remains in full strength---Amalek must be
destroyed, otherwise, it will cause us great damage.
Eventually, Amalek (Islam) will be destroyed. Yes, almost a billion Muslims
will perish.
It is very difficult for a secular Jew who is exposed for the first time to real Torah
concepts to accept some of them, and I sympathize with you, because I've been
through this before. The essence of Judaism is "Kabalat Ol Malchut Shama'im",
the acceptance of the yoke of heaven. What can I say, it is a difficult.
davkakach:
--- Quote ---you must feel Judaism in the heart, and not just boast that you are so smart about Torah and Talmud.
--- End quote ---
I want to comment on this line separately, because I feel it deserves special treatment.
What is most important for a Jew is to understand the Jewish Idea, which forms the
foundation for everything else.
First of all, I have nothing to boast about. I am not smart at all about Torah, and most
certainly the Talmud. I am but a mere novice, taking his first baby steps, barely dipping
my toe hesitatingly into the vast sea of Torah and Talmud knowledge. I have a long
way to go. However, everything is relative, and relative to you, I am a bit more
advanced, so I thought I would offer you some insights (and with sincere humility, I
hope you will consider some of those insights).
The Neturei Karta, ymach shemam, are supposedly very "smart about Torah and Talmud."
After all, they spend hours every studying Torah, Mishna, Gemara, Talmud, Tosefta,
Mishnaiot, Rishonim, Achronim, Musar, Emuna. But do you consider them good Jews?
The "rabbis" of the treasonous Yesha council who urged the Gush Katif protestors to
exercise restraint instead of showing violent opposition to the expulsion, surely were
knowledgable in the Torah and Talmud, yet would you say that their advice was
correct?
The hundreds of thousands of "Ultra-Orthodox" in Israel who refuse to acknowledge that
the foundation of the State of Israel, who refuse to serve in the IDF, who do not show
any gratitude for the money that the State (which they refuse to acknowledge) gives
them for Torah study---do you think they are good Jews?
Examples of rabbis, Gedolim in Torah, who committed terrible mistakes and betrayed weak
faith in God, are unfortunately numerous throughout Jewish history, and many such cases
are cited in the Mishna. you will learn more about it when you listen to the Torah shiur I
mentioned in a previous post.
Various Sifrei Musar (Jewish ethics books), recommended for people who are in the
process of Chazara BeTshuva (such as myself), detail a hierarchy of levels of a person's
faith. The highest level is that of a Jew who performs a mitzva not because he thinks
it makes sense or is just, but because he is commanded to perform the Mitzva. So,
for example, you are supposed to avoid murdering a fellow Jew not because you think
it makes sense, but because God forbade you to do so. Because today you
think it makes sense, and tomorrow it will seem justified to kill a Jew who, for example,
killed (God forbid) raped your daughter. Does he deserve to be killed? Sure, I think
so. But it is not up to you. It is up to the Sanhedrim (may it be re-established in our
time) to decide.
Anyway, you and I have a long way to go.
NeverMore:
i read your post, and still cant see where do you disagree with me. we think just the same. its only very non nice of you,to say this:
--- Quote ---Western,
hellenized, liberal ideas are entrenched in your mind.
--- End quote ---
i greee about amalek- every arab, every muslim who seeks the destruction of Israel, or ANYONE in the world that seeks to destroy Jews will be called amalek and Jews must fight them, even simply to SRUVIVE.
amalek is definately not (at least not today) a PEOPLE, its a way of life, of thinking. therefore not all arabs or muslims are amalek. there are muslims who dont care about the kuran and care only about logics.
the problem is, and i think here is what you dont understand in my views, is that i dont say "oh, dont fight, you might kill a righteous man", but i say "kill and fight and do ALL to protect the Jewish people, ALL that you only can. but, dont ask to kill when its not needed to protect our people." i would agree to bomb any hostile thing to us (katiusha, terrorists, qasams and so on) even if there are cevilians around. its very basic, because if not, OUR people would get killed from these "things" i mentioned.
you said one sentence which actually tells that you agree with me completely:
--- Quote ---Nevertheless, this decree is not against a race, but against an ideology.
--- End quote ---
thus, we define amalek as an ideology and fight them. thats the idea.
and by the way, im not as secular as you think. i even would call myself not secular at all, a REAL Jew. if you wanna know why i can tell you if you ask, its just that its another subject (so that you wont think i only love myself so much that i claim such things based on nothing- or something like that).
and dude, if you want me to respect you stop saying this "helenization" and "liberal" crap about me, because you obviously dont know me well enough.
if you can only say what is the thing you disagree with me over it, i would answer specificly. however, it seems like we agree about all except that you want to KILL them all, while i want to FIGHT them all (them- the arabs, muslims who as a PEOPLE seek to destroy us). isnt it right?
NeverMore:
--- Quote ---Various Sifrei Musar (Jewish ethics books), recommended for people who are in the
process of Chazara BeTshuva (such as myself), detail a hierarchy of levels of a person's
faith. The highest level is that of a Jew who performs a mitzva not because he thinks
it makes sense or is just, but because he is commanded to perform the Mitzva. So,
for example, you are supposed to avoid murdering a fellow Jew not because you think
it makes sense, but because God forbade you to do so. Because today you
think it makes sense, and tomorrow it will seem justified to kill a Jew who, for example,
killed (God forbid) raped your daughter. Does he deserve to be killed? Sure, I think
so. But it is not up to you. It is up to the Sanhedrim (may it be re-established in our
time) to decide.
--- End quote ---
you know what i dont like about "Judaism" (quote mark- because its not real judaism what im gonna describe here)?
so many Jews, and i see you are among them, practice mitsvas just because its written, or interpreted from the Torah by a rabbi or something like that. you brought an example of murder- there are numerouse mitsvot you can come to alone, all by yourself. as i sayed in other posts, being Jewish is first about being righteous. you mustnt hurt anyone (including animals) who dont want to hurt you. thats the basic, anyway. you can study blindly all the mitsvas and still not be a REAL Jew, only an impostor, because it will not come from within you using this idea i mentioned about not hurting and stuff. first- mitsvas between people, then between man and G-d.
so, you can be hozer be teshuva, an idea i consider myself (of course, not in your fashion (which doesnt emphasize morality, but goes "by the book, do whats written and thats all" something of this kind). a REAL teshuva, no matter if you are muslim, arab christian or a buddhist, the first step of REAL and GENUINE teshuva will begin with the righteousness idea i mentioned above. everything else will stand on this basis.
so if you say that you would KILL someone who raped your daughter, you are letitimately want to punish him for that.
however, G-d's way are'nt these. this man must be punished, to start regretting, and begin a real teshuva of his own, based on understanding whats wrong. you dont KILL everyone who slips and falls to the hands of the sin. i dont know how in the world can you believe Judaism is such a violent, brutal and cruel religion, that it can preach to kill kill kill and so on. in the same way, if a righteous man, who is accidently also an arab, walks in the street, you dont come to kill him.
Judaism is a religion of peace, you DEFEND the Jewish people, not simply attack the non Jews (like muslims) because you think this has been commanded by G-d, which it hasnt been for the sake of truth.
davkakach:
--- Quote ---there are muslims who dont care about the kuran and care only about logics
--- End quote ---
After reading the Qur'an, the Hadith, Craig Winn's Prophet of Doom, Robert Spencer's
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, and Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad,
I am inclined to disagree with this view.
There are no peaceful Muslims. There might be peaceful people who think they are
Muslim, but they are not true Muslims, they do not live by the Qur'an, who commands all
Muslims to kill and subjugate the unbelievers. In fact, the Qur'an addresses in particular
peaceful "Muslims" who are unwilling to participate in jihad warfare, and calls such peaceful
people hypocrites for whom the hottest places in hell are reserved.
You can be peaceful. You can be Muslim. But you can't be both. Don't blame me, it's all
in the unholy Qur'an.
--- Quote ---and by the way, im not as secular as you think
--- End quote ---
It doesn't matter whether you're secular or not. What matters is whether you understand
the authentic Jewish Idea (as explained in Rabbi Kahane's writings). There are many
"rabbis" (like the Yesha traitors) who perform Mitzvot but who do not understand at all
the Jewish Idea.
--- Quote ---and dude, if you want me to respect you stop saying this "helenization" and "liberal" crap about me, because you obviously dont know me well enough.
--- End quote ---
I just feel that you have misplaced pity towards enemies and potential enemies, and it
bothers me.
--- Quote ---however, it seems like we agree about all except that you want to KILL them all, while i want to FIGHT them all (them- the arabs, muslims who as a PEOPLE seek to destroy us). isnt it right?
--- End quote ---
That's all Israel has been doing for the last few decades! It has been fighting the
Arab Nazi scum, with no results. I don't want to fight for the sake of fighting. I want
to fight in order to kill, eliminate, liquidate the Muslim vermin, once and for all!
I don't want to be a victim in a relentless war of attrition. I don't want to fight forever.
I want peace. Peace through elimination of the evil Nazi cockroaches, for whom you
should have no pity!
Okay, and now let's shake hands. :)
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