Being Gay

[muman613]

Muman,

I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.

Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.

Because G-d knew how many shvartze chalariyas there would be and did NOT want THEM multiplying.

Very eloquently put, and actually correct.. The Noachide laws were given to Noah after the world had become foul with theft and immorality. Many things changed at that time as Hashem wanted to start over again... But Noah was a disappointment. It is interesting that he was considered the most righteous of his generation, yet he was lowered in stature by the end of his story. The nations got the seven Noachide laws in order to maintain order in the world. The mitzvah of procreation was a gift given by Hashem to the Jewish nation at mount Sinai along with the 612 others.

If the nations were to have this mitzvah then the world may once again be overflowing with theft and immorality.

[The One and Only Mo]

Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.

And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?

[muman613]

Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.

And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?

When Reform was 'invented'

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What happened to all the other posts in this thread?

[muman613]

What happened to all the other posts in this thread?

I moved them to a new thread...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Back to the subject of being homosexual--what explanation do the Sages give for why gayness exists in the world?

[muman613]

Back to the subject of being homosexual--what explanation do the Sages give for why gayness exists in the world?

That is something I really have no idea about at this time...

Let me see if there is anything said about 'why' it exists...

Well, I found something which makes an attempt to explain this issue:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/homosexuality-and-judaism/

Judaism, Nature and Homosexuality

     A primary function and overall goal of the commandments is nothing less than the transformation of the individual. Judaism addresses the human being as it finds him — in his “natural” state — seething with animal passions, ridden with negative character traits. Through the agency of those Divine tools of refinement that are the commandments, the Torah beckons man to exchange his obsession with sensuality, his pettiness, self-centeredness and worse for a world of spiritual grandeur and ultimate meaning.

     The implacable foe with which Judaism’s battle is forever pitched, then, is not so much secularism or even non-belief as it is “nature,” that is, the human being’s intense desire to eschew growth and change, to remain static in the face of God’s summons to greatness. No one perceived — and furiously opposed — this overarching Judaic objective more than the modern-day manifestation of evil incarnate, Adolf Hitler. He wrote in “Mein Kampf,” “a man must…understand the fundamental necessity of Nature’s rule…. Then he will feel that in a universe where…force alone forever masters weakness ... there can be no special laws for man.”

     The nature of the challenge posed by the Torah will, of course, vary with the individual, based on proclivities both inborn and acquired. For some, that challenge will be the struggle to control anger and aggressiveness, while for others, it will be the attempt to rein in arrogance and reach out in acknowledgement of the other. Yet others’ particularly daunting charge will be combating powerful sensual drives, with their potential to reduce the unlimited human potential to nothing more than the pursuit of shallow, momentary fleshy pleasures. This is no less true for the individual who claims to have been “born gay” than for anyone else. …

     When the Torah decreed that all sexual activity should be channeled into marriage, writes Dennis Prager, it ensured that sex no longer dominated society, heightened male-female love and sexuality, and began the arduous task of elevating the status of women. The ban on homosexuality desexualized religion[1], gave boundaries and controls to the strongest of man’s sensual urges which until then had been expressed in every which way[2]When Judaism demanded that all sexual activity be channeled into marriage, it changed the world. The subsequent dominance of the Western world, says Dennis Prager, can largely be attributed to the sexual revolution initiated by Judaism, and later carried forward by Christianity.

     The revolutionary nature of Judaism’s prohibiting all forms of non-marital sex was nowhere more radical, more challenging to the prevailing assumptions of mankind, than with regard to homosexuality.

     Indeed, Judaism may be said to have invented the notion of homosexuality, for in the ancient world sexuality was not divided between heterosexuality and homosexuality. That division was the Bible’s doing. Before the Bible, the world divided sexuality between … active and passive roles[3].

     As Martha Nussbaum, professor of philosophy at Brown University, recently wrote, the ancients were no more concerned with people’s gender preference than people today are with others’ eating preferences:

     Boys and women were very often treated interchangeably as objects of (male) desire. What was socially important is to penetrate rather than to be penetrated. Sex is understood fundamentally not as interaction, but as a doing of something to someone. In this environment, homosexuality was rampant[4].   

     Judaism changed all this. It rendered the “gender of the object” very “morally problematic”; it declared that no one is “interchangeable” sexually. And as a result, it ensured that sex would in fact be “fundamentally interaction” and not simply “a doing of something to someone.”

     It is the Hebrew Bible that gave humanity such ideas as a universal, moral, loving God; ethical obligations to this God; the need for history to move forward to moral and spiritual redemption; the belief that history has meaning; and the notion that human freedom and social justice are the divinely desired states for all people. It gave the world the Ten Commandments, ethical monotheism, and the concept of holiness (the goal of raising human beings from the animal-like to the Godlike).

     Judaism cannot make peace with homosexuality because homosexuality denies many of Judaism’s most fundamental principles. It denies life, it denies God’s expressed desire that men and women cohabit, and it denies the root structure that Judaism wishes for all mankind, the family[5].

[The One and Only Mo]

Back to the subject of being homosexual--what explanation do the Sages give for why gayness exists in the world?

It's like any sickness I guess. The same way those things exist, so does homosexuality. The brain is a funny organ.

[tron77]

My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot? But I guess the point of my question was just to ask that if something is forbidden, and it does not hurt other people in the context of rape murder   etc, then if a person wishes to change they then are given that chance. It then would come down to exact laws in that someone mentioned having to be caught in a act, and so since that is most likley not going to happen, then it has to be more about the idea of correction, or change?  And now that we are on these subjects what about drug use in the Torah? anything?

[Lisa]

Lesbianism is also forbidden in Judaism.  G-d told Jews not to imitate the ways of the other nations.  Apparently, lesbianism was quite the fashion in ancient Egypt.  (This is according to Chaim in one of the past Ask JTF shows.)

[Zelhar]

Muman,

I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.

Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.

I believe this mitza is actually given to all living things.

[The One and Only Mo]

My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot? But I guess the point of my question was just to ask that if something is forbidden, and it does not hurt other people in the context of rape murder   etc, then if a person wishes to change they then are given that chance. It then would come down to exact laws in that someone mentioned having to be caught in a act, and so since that is most likley not going to happen, then it has to be more about the idea of correction, or change?  And now that we are on these subjects what about drug use in the Torah? anything?

Ask JTF for a good answer.

[muman613]

Muman,

I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.

Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.

I believe this mitza is actually given to all living things.

Actually according to Jewish belief it is not...

Please read what I posted yesterday..

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,37224.msg374455.html#msg374455

I reposted it here:

AT&T Bell Laboratories, in Columbus, Ohio asks:

n Parashat Vayishlach, you wrote that "There are only three mitzvot in Sefer Bereishit. The first mitzvah, to be fruitful and multiply, is essential to the survival of all of Mankind..." And yet, on the surface, "p'ru ur'vu" is not one of the commandments for the Bnei Noach. Why not?

Dear AT&T,

There are 7 commandments from Hashem for the Bnei Noach to govern their behavior. They are:

Prohibition against Prohibition against adultery.
idolatry. Prohibition against eating a limb
Prohibition against of a live animal.
blasphemy. The commandment to establish courts
Prohibition against of law.
murder.
Prohibition against
theft.

The Sefer HaChinuch lists the three mitzvot taught in the Book of Bereishit, and writes that they apply only to the Jewish People.

   1. "Be fruitful and multiply" in Parashat Bereishit.
   2. "Brit mila" in Parashat Lech Lecha.
   3. "Don't eat the gid hanashe" in Vayishlach.

Brit mila is a covenant "between Me and you [Avraham] and your seed after you" (Bereishit 17:10). Thus, the Bnei Noach are excluded from this mitzvah.

In Vayishlach, the Torah states "The children of Israel shall not eat the gid hanashe" (Bereishit 31:33). Once again the Bnei Noach are exempted.

The mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply was given to the first Man (Bereishit 1:28) and repeated to Noach (Bereishit 9:1). It would appear equally incumbent upon all Mankind. Yet, this is *not* one of the 7 Noachide Laws.

The Talmud explains that:

"All mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach and *repeated* at Sinai, apply to both Jews and non-Jews. Those mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach but *not* repeated at Sinai were given only to the Jews."

"P'ru ur'vu" was not repeated at Sinai. So, even though Adam and Noach had been personally commanded to reproduce, the mitzvah did not become one of the 7 Noachide Laws.

It should be noted, however, that there is a special obligation to ensure that the world is fully populated, and that this obligation is equally applicable to Jew and Gentile. It is derived from a verse in the writings of the Prophets which calls upon Mankind inhabit as much of the Creation as possible:

"He [Hashem] did not create the world to be desolate; [rather] to be settled he formed it."

Sources:

    * Tractate Sanhedrin, 59a.
    * Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim ch. 9.
    * Sefer HaChinuch.
    * The Path of the Righteous Gentile, by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Regalsky (Targum Press).
    * Isaiah 45.



"All mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach and *repeated* at Sinai, apply to both Jews and non-Jews. Those mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach but *not* repeated at Sinai were given only to the Jews."

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?

Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.

[muman613]

My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?

Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.

True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.

[Dr. Dan]

Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

Yup..but should add that's it's not like changing underwear...i'm sure it's very hard to change from one to the other although it should be encouraged.

[Dr. Dan]

so only islam throws them off buildings. but doing a goat is ok so long as you dont eat its meat.... swear i didnt make this up

There are actually loopholes where Islam allows homosexuality and pedophilia...

[muman613]

Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?

Yup..but should add that's it's not like changing underwear...i'm sure it's very hard to change from one to the other although it should be encouraged.

The closest I can imagine is the drug addict {which I am familiar with}. Pleasure is an addiction, and when people get sensual input and they enjoy it, then they rationalize every reason why it is not wrong to engage in the activity. It is said that the third time someone makes a sin, it becomes routine for them. I know it is within human capabilities to make radical changes in your reality. I have experiences which really tested the material I am created from.

[Zelhar]

Muman, I posted a more detailed opinion about this issue on the thread that deals with it. Bottome line is it is obvious that God blessed all living things with "pru u'rvu" and again specifically he repeated this blessing to Noah and his Sons. The way I see it, Either The 7 commandments of Noah don't constitute the only commandments that apply to them. From what I understand there is such halachic opinion that explains the 7 commandments are the prohibitive ("don't") laws, but the procreation is a "do" law. Or procreation is considered a mitzvah only for Israel, but it is nonetheless a blessing that applies to all man kind and all living things in general.

[Hyades]

Well if I have the right notion of the Torah, I would say a gay who never ACTS as homosexual - that means committing intercourse with men, there should not be any punishment. The act itself is punished with death. A gay should then stay at least abstinent from sex to not commit a sin. I think this is also the interpretaion in Christian faith (at least Orthodox and Catholic, I know some Lutheran Churches which don't condemn it. The biggest Lutheran church in my town even has a gay-lesbian choir!!!).

[Dr. Dan]

"A man should cleave to his wife's skin"...I think that is the quote that indicates that sex between a husband and wife shoudl be as natural as possible.  Unless health were an issue, condoms shouldn't be used between husband and wife.

<snip>

When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?

I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.

There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...

Is Judaism against condom use?

[AsheDina]

Lev 18:22-29
 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.

[The One and Only Mo]

Lev 18:22-29
 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.

That should have been put into the Constitution.

LOL.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Maybe in Islam.  All bestiality is forbidden in Judaism, and although there may be punishments by a Torah state for homosexuals caught in the act, I doubt that "throwing them off a building" would be the form of execution used.

How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.

LOL great question

Maybe one of the participants gets cold feet and then reports his buddy to the beth din....

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Lesbianism is also forbidden in Judaism.  G-d told Jews not to imitate the ways of the other nations.  Apparently, lesbianism was quite the fashion in ancient Egypt.  (This is according to Chaim in one of the past Ask JTF shows.)

I'm trying to remember who lists that as one of the practices of the Egyptians that it is referring to.   I believe it might have been Rambam.   With respect to Chaim and of course the Rambam, I think there is a wide array of opinion on this and many hold that it is in a category of 'not necessarily assur but still discouraged.'  That sort of thing.   There is also the opinion that it's allowed.   But even by them, I'm sure that changes once a girl is married.