Author Topic: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?  (Read 7611 times)

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Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2009, 01:54:12 AM »
I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.

It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.

I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.







We were all created "Btzelem Elokim" In Hashem's image, but don't only Jews have neshamas?

Offline muman613

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2009, 01:54:14 AM »
So basically, you are saying that righteous Gentiles are commanded to multiply, but that it's not one of the Noahide Laws?

What I gather from the previous post is that the command to fill the earth with life is fulfilled when the righteous gentiles are fruitful and multiply..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2009, 01:55:12 AM »
I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.

It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.

I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.







We were all created "Btzelem Elokim" In Hashem's image, but don't only Jews have neshamas?

Of course this is a politically incorrect question and one which we should not ponder here...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2009, 01:56:43 AM »
I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).

I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.

Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.

It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.

I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.







We were all created "Btzelem Elokim" In Hashem's image, but don't only Jews have neshamas?

Of course this is a politically incorrect question and one which we should not ponder here...

Sorry, didn't think it mattered. I'll be more careful.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2009, 02:01:41 AM »
If a Gentile obeys the seven NLs and does not procreate, is he or she unrighteous then?

Offline muman613

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2009, 02:04:19 AM »
If a Gentile obeys the seven NLs and does not procreate, is he or she unrighteous then?

According to what I understand a non-Jew is only required to perform the seven NLs. Of course a righteous non-Jew may gain some merit from obeying Hashem. But there is a concept that there is more merit when one does something they are obliged to than one who does something they are not obliged to...

I would give merit to a non-Jew who considered this a command from Hashem and conducts his marriage according in a holy manner... I do not know how the calculation in Shemayim is done..



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2009, 02:05:24 AM »
What is Shemayim? I'm sorry but I don't know any of these Hebrew terms.

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 02:06:24 AM »
What is Shemayim? I'm sorry but I don't know any of these Hebrew terms.

shomayaim is heaven

Offline muman613

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 02:06:29 AM »
What is Shemayim? I'm sorry but I don't know any of these Hebrew terms.

It is the Hebrew word for 'The Heavens'.. Like where the Heavenly Tribunal is held {The Judgement day}.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Spectator

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2009, 02:09:35 AM »
How can the world be created just for Jewish people when Jews were only given Eretz Yisrael? Are there other lands that Jews are supposed to fill someday?


"The world was created for Jewish people" means that the main goal of the creation was that the Jewish people observe 613 commandments of G-d. One of the commandments is to live in the Land of Israel, therefore Jews are not supposed to fill any other land than Eretz Israel. Neither now nor in the future.
Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2009, 02:10:07 AM »
I assumed that that is what it meant, but didn't know.

In any case, I'm still waiting for Chaim. He was so sure of himself when he addressed this on Ask JTF before. I still do not think that people must procreate in order to be righteous, but I really want to see Chaim's reasoning.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2009, 11:31:12 AM »
It is very clear if you just read genesis 1:
Quote
20 And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'
21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.'
It is a blessing that God gave to all living things.

And if this is not enough for you, read genesis 9:
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth.

The subtle point is, that Jews consider this a commandment, but the text say's it's a blessing. Anyway God's intention in this case is very clear. He wants all man kind to multiply. 

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2009, 12:46:56 PM »
Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?

According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yes.   I read an article about his view on that once.  As far as other authorities, I don't know if everyone agrees on that.   

But that's certainly enough of an authority for Chaim to go on and be absolutely correct with his view.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:59:50 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2009, 12:57:14 PM »
Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.

And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?

When Reform was 'invented'


But Reform Judaism was created to by Moses Mendelsohn as an attempt to integrate Jews into secular society. He wanted everybody to be frum but just to join the working world and pretend to not be frum on the outside with all the anti-semites. It was his followers that pissed away Judaism and took it to a worse level. His intentions were for partial assimilation ie. on the outside. But he maintained every Jew should still keep the 613. I forgot the follower of his that took it farther.

Once again.  It (reform Judaism) was NOT  created by Moses Mendelsohn ZT"L.   The actual founders of reform judaism were a bunch of losers who tried to latch on to the legacy of Moses Mendelsohn, who was one of the most famous Jews of all time, was extremely pious, ORTHODOX frum Jew, who happened to have beaten Kant in an essay contest and was known even to the German gentiles as one of the greatest geniuses in history.    The "Reformists" tried to pretend as if they were following in Mendelsohn's footsteps.   But THEY WERE NOT.    He kept halacha, and he wrote frum Torah commentaries that could hang with the best of talmudic scholars' even though he was not necessarily the foremost of Talmudists, but he WAS still recognized as a great one in his own right, even if not the best talmudist. But as far as knowledge of Judaism, philosophy and hashkafa, he was second to none.    His commentaries were focused in pshat, and his writings very philosophical.   

Reform are a bunch of liars and frauds.   And it appeared on the scene almost 100 years after Mendelsohn's death!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2009, 01:06:08 PM »
And for those people who doubt this, the history is there for people to see and to look up themselves.   Start with the Mendelsohn wikipedia page for a brief summary, then try Gil Student's blog, hirhurim.blogspot.com - search for posts on Mendelsohn, he's done a few entries on him, and in the comments section, there is basically everything.  In the most recent one, probably from July (last month), one ignorant guy comes in slandering Mendelsohn as "reformer" and he is utterly refuted and knocked down by people bringing the facts of history.   A beautiful thing.

But the real beauty is in the "Biur" - Mendelsohn's Torah commentary, that was finished off by one of his students in the later writings.   From what I am told, his commentary on Vayikra was a complete defense of chazal in the face of new enlightenment-based philosophies/theories, supposedly basing themselves in science and archaeology, which attacked the traditional belief in the Bible..  In other words, he defended chazal against the forerunners of the documentary hypothesis.... Some reformer, huh?     

My rabbi has this work, but I have not learned it yet myself.   But shouldn't the evidence for who Mendelsohn was or wasn't be found in his own writings?    Not the claims of Reformist charlatans who tried to destroy Judaism? 

Quit giving them the credit of being associated in anyway with Mendelsohn's credentials and ideology.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2009, 01:13:34 PM »
According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yes.   I read an article about his view on that once.  As far as other authorities, I don't know if everyone agrees on that.   

But that's certainly enough of an authority for Chaim to go on and be absolutely correct with his view.
If you believe that Gen 1:28 is a commandment and not just a gift/blessing, this is the only logical view. Would you say that there are any Jews who believe that there are more than seven Noahide Laws?

Offline mord

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2009, 01:15:41 PM »
And for those people who doubt this, the history is there for people to see and to look up themselves.   Start with the Mendelsohn wikipedia page for a brief summary, then try Gil Student's blog, hirhurim.blogspot.com - search for posts on Mendelsohn, he's done a few entries on him, and in the comments section, there is basically everything.  In the most recent one, probably from July (last month), one ignorant guy comes in slandering Mendelsohn as "reformer" and he is utterly refuted and knocked down by people bringing the facts of history.   A beautiful thing.

But the real beauty is in the "Biur" - Mendelsohn's Torah commentary, that was finished off by one of his students in the later writings.   From what I am told, his commentary on Vayikra was a complete defense of chazal in the face of new enlightenment-based philosophies/theories, supposedly basing themselves in science and archaeology, which attacked the traditional belief in the Bible..  In other words, he defended chazal against the forerunners of the documentary hypothesis.... Some reformer, huh?     

My rabbi has this work, but I have not learned it yet myself.   But shouldn't the evidence for who Mendelsohn was or wasn't be found in his own writings?    Not the claims of Reformist charlatans who tried to destroy Judaism? 

Quit giving them the credit of being associated in anyway with Mendelsohn's credentials and ideology.
Do you know Gil
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2009, 02:30:06 PM »
According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yes.   I read an article about his view on that once.  As far as other authorities, I don't know if everyone agrees on that.   

But that's certainly enough of an authority for Chaim to go on and be absolutely correct with his view.
If you believe that Gen 1:28 is a commandment and not just a gift/blessing, this is the only logical view. Would you say that there are any Jews who believe that there are more than seven Noahide Laws?

I'm not sure if the Rebbe considered it one of the 7 noahide laws.   He may not have.   But at the same time holds that it is imperative for non-Jews and Jews alike.  I would have to look into it again.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2009, 02:32:56 PM »
Do you know Gil

I don't but I'm a big fan of his blog.  You know him?

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2009, 02:33:56 PM »
                                                                                                                                                        בס''ד

The commandment "be fruitful and multiply" was given to all mankind and then given again to Noach (Noah). However, it was not included in the 7 commandments that were given to bnei Noach (the righteous Gentiles) when G-d spoke to the entire Jewish people at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).

This situation has created a machloket (difference of opinion) among Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud) as to whether bnei Noach are also commanded to have children.

Clearly, it is a blessed deed for righteous Gentiles to have children and to raise them to be righteous. The question is, are righteous Gentiles commanded to do so? And will righteous Gentiles who fail to do so face punishment? Because the Jews are commanded to have children, and Jews who fail to do so do face the prospect of punishment.

According to Tosfot (see Chagigah) and Shealtot (see Midrash Sechel Tov), bnei Noach are indeed commanded to have children. However, bnei Noach are not punished if they do not have children because this is not one of the 7 commandments given at Sinai. There is a blessing for having children, but no punishment for not having children. (Unlike the Jews, who do face the prospect of punishment if they do not have children).

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2009, 02:51:18 PM »
I think Chaim just gave us the best answer.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2009, 03:05:08 PM »
The commandment "be fruitful and multiply" was given to all mankind and then given again to Noach (Noah). However, it was not included in the 7 commandments that were given to bnei Noach (the righteous Gentiles) when G-d spoke to the entire Jewish people at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).

This situation has created a machloket (difference of opinion) among Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud) as to whether bnei Noach are also commanded to have children.

Clearly, it is a blessed deed for righteous Gentiles to have children and to raise them to be righteous. The question is, are righteous Gentiles commanded to do so? And will righteous Gentiles who fail to do so face punishment? Because the Jews are commanded to have children, and Jews who fail to do so do face the prospect of punishment.

According to Tosfot (see Chagigah) and Shealtot (see Midrash Sechel Tov), bnei Noach are indeed commanded to have children. However, bnei Noach are not punished if they do not have children because this is not one of the 7 commandments given at Sinai. There is a blessing for having children, but no punishment for not having children. (Unlike the Jews, who do face the prospect of punishment if they do not have children).
Two questions Chaim:

1: I do not at all intend to be disrespectful to the great Torah Sages (zt"l), but is it at all possible that this was left out of the Noahide Laws in error?
2: How can procreation be commanded for all human beings and yet righteous Gentiles are not punished for not procreating? Wouldn't that mean that it is not a commandment?

Offline muman613

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2009, 03:58:38 PM »
Chaim,

Thank you so much for your well researched response. As usual with Jewish laws there are opinions both ways. It is true that if you ask Two Jews you will get Three opinions.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline New Yorker

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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2009, 04:20:29 PM »


Well, whatever, it's a good thing, you righteous gentiles, get busy making babies.  ;D
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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2009, 04:45:29 PM »
The commandment "be fruitful and multiply" was given to all mankind and then given again to Noach (Noah). However, it was not included in the 7 commandments that were given to bnei Noach (the righteous Gentiles) when G-d spoke to the entire Jewish people at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).

This situation has created a machloket (difference of opinion) among Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud) as to whether bnei Noach are also commanded to have children.

Clearly, it is a blessed deed for righteous Gentiles to have children and to raise them to be righteous. The question is, are righteous Gentiles commanded to do so? And will righteous Gentiles who fail to do so face punishment? Because the Jews are commanded to have children, and Jews who fail to do so do face the prospect of punishment.

According to Tosfot (see Chagigah) and Shealtot (see Midrash Sechel Tov), bnei Noach are indeed commanded to have children. However, bnei Noach are not punished if they do not have children because this is not one of the 7 commandments given at Sinai. There is a blessing for having children, but no punishment for not having children. (Unlike the Jews, who do face the prospect of punishment if they do not have children).
Two questions Chaim:

1: I do not at all intend to be disrespectful to the great Torah Sages (zt"l), but is it at all possible that this was left out of the Noahide Laws in error?
2: How can procreation be commanded for all human beings and yet righteous Gentiles are not punished for not procreating? Wouldn't that mean that it is not a commandment?

                                                                                                                                                                                   בס''ד

1. The Noahide laws cannot have any errors. The rabbis did not create the Noahide laws. The Noahide laws were given by G-d Himself at Mount Sinai.

2. Sometimes, there are commandments which bring blessings if someone does them, but no punishment if someone doesn't do them. This is because of G-d's great mercy.

For example, there have been times in history when evil people have ordered righteous Gentiles to bow before idols. These wicked people threatened to murder the righteous Gentiles unless they bow before the idols. Are the righteous Gentiles allowed to bow in order to save their lives? According to Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud), the righteous Gentiles are permitted to bow to save their lives. The Biblical source for this Rabbinic ruling comes from the story of Naaman, a righteous Gentile who asked the Jewish prophet Elisha if he would be permitted to bow before idols when his king orders him to do so:

"In this thing will the L-rd pardon thy servant, that when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I myself bow in the house of Rimmon...will the L-rd pardon thy servant in this thing?" (Kings II, 5:18).

Elisha answers Naaman, "Go in peace."

So G-d does not punish the righteous Gentiles for saving their lives even though not worshipping idols is one of the 7 Torah commandments imposed upon the Gentiles.

The Jews, on the other hand, are commanded to die al kiddush hashem (sanctifying G-d's name) if they are ordered to bow before idols or worship idols. Many Jewish men, women and children throughout history willingly gave their lives and were brutally tortured to death rather than bow before idols.

Why the much stricter commandment for the Jews? Because the Jews carry G-d's name, He is the G-d of Israel, and for the Jews to bow before idols is ultimate desecration of G-d's name.

But G-d, in His mercy, does not demand that His righteous Gentile servants give up their lives in a situation like that. Of course, if their lives are not threatened, then righteous Gentiles are not allowed to bow before idols.

The same rule of mercy toward the righteous Gentiles applies in the case of having children. Many times in history, righteous Gentiles were forced to live in the cruelest and most barbaric societies. Should these righteous Gentiles be punished if they choose not to bring children into the world where their children may be subjected to murder, torture, rape, mutiliation? For example, should righteous Gentiles who live in Muslim countries be forced to have children? Should righteous Gentiles who decide not to have children in Muslim countries be punished for that decision?