Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?

[Dr. Dan]

Interesting point..

However, Gd told all living things to be fruitful and multiply..that has to include righteous gentiles also...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

1. The Noahide laws cannot have any errors. The rabbis did not create the Noahide laws. The Noahide laws were given by G-d Himself at Mount Sinai.

No, what I meant was is it at all conceivable that the Ravs mistakenly ommitted including the command to increase in number within the Noahide Laws.

The Jews, on the other hand, are commanded to die al kiddush hashem (sanctifying G-d's name) if they are ordered to bow before idols or worship idols. Many Jewish men, women and children throughout history willingly gave their lives and were brutally tortured to death rather than bow before idols.

This is the same as what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that we must be willing to die rather than (even pretend to) serve an idol (or to deny the name of the real G-d). Millions of Christian martyrs throughout history have chosen torturous deaths over denying the name of G-d as well.

Many times in history, righteous Gentiles were forced to live in the cruelest and most barbaric societies. Should these righteous Gentiles be punished if they choose not to bring children into the world where their children may be subjected to murder, torture, rape, mutiliation? For example, should righteous Gentiles who live in Muslim countries be forced to have children? Should righteous Gentiles who decide not to have children in Muslim countries be punished for that decision?

So, in other words, Gentiles who are not in these extreme circumstances will be punished if they do not multiply?

[Rubystars]

Christians are taught to choose martyrdom over denying our religion.

[muman613]

1. The Noahide laws cannot have any errors. The rabbis did not create the Noahide laws. The Noahide laws were given by G-d Himself at Mount Sinai.

No, what I meant was is it at all conceivable that the Ravs mistakenly ommitted including the command to increase in number within the Noahide Laws.

The Jews, on the other hand, are commanded to die al kiddush hashem (sanctifying G-d's name) if they are ordered to bow before idols or worship idols. Many Jewish men, women and children throughout history willingly gave their lives and were brutally tortured to death rather than bow before idols.

This is the same as what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that we must be willing to die rather than (even pretend to) serve an idol (or to deny the name of the real G-d). Millions of Christian martyrs throughout history have chosen torturous deaths over denying the name of G-d as well.

Many times in history, righteous Gentiles were forced to live in the cruelest and most barbaric societies. Should these righteous Gentiles be punished if they choose not to bring children into the world where their children may be subjected to murder, torture, rape, mutiliation? For example, should righteous Gentiles who live in Muslim countries be forced to have children? Should righteous Gentiles who decide not to have children in Muslim countries be punished for that decision?

So, in other words, Gentiles who are not in these extreme circumstances will be punished if they do not multiply?

More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.

what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[muman613]

More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.

what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

I will leave it at this... I am a bit upset about thinking about the Passion movie and may say something without thinking properly.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman, nobody on JTF--at least no significant members--supports the fag Mel Gibson or his stupid Nazi movie. I realize you are angry but please remember that.

As for the NT church fathers--99% of them were Jewish and many continued to obey the 613. I know that according to Judaism they were heretics, and do not want to convert anybody of otherwise, but the last thing that they wanted to do was promote an ancient Shoah. As members of the Chosen Nation, they viewed themselves as being the vanguard of the new faith.

[Rubystars]

More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.

what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

I will leave it at this... I am a bit upset about thinking about the Passion movie and may say something without thinking properly.

Anyone who starts hating Jews because they saw a poorly done artsy movie has to be a total moron. Unfortunately there are a lot of morons out there, so I can see your concern.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Rubystars is correct. All of these so-called Christian anti-Semites throughout history (and yes, we know full well that there were tens of millions of them, and that they made up the vast majority of the population of the so-called Christian world) already hated Jews for decidedly un-theological reasons (i.e. they were jealous and resentful of them, hated the fact that they stood for morality, etc.).

[The One and Only Mo]

Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.

And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?

When Reform was 'invented'

But Reform Judaism was created to by Moses Mendelsohn as an attempt to integrate Jews into secular society. He wanted everybody to be frum but just to join the working world and pretend to not be frum on the outside with all the anti-semites. It was his followers that pissed away Judaism and took it to a worse level. His intentions were for partial assimilation ie. on the outside. But he maintained every Jew should still keep the 613. I forgot the follower of his that took it farther.

Once again.  It (reform Judaism) was NOT  created by Moses Mendelsohn ZT"L.   The actual founders of reform judaism were a bunch of losers who tried to latch on to the legacy of Moses Mendelsohn, who was one of the most famous Jews of all time, was extremely pious, ORTHODOX frum Jew, who happened to have beaten Kant in an essay contest and was known even to the German gentiles as one of the greatest geniuses in history.    The "Reformists" tried to pretend as if they were following in Mendelsohn's footsteps.   But THEY WERE NOT.    He kept halacha, and he wrote frum Torah commentaries that could hang with the best of talmudic scholars' even though he was not necessarily the foremost of Talmudists, but he WAS still recognized as a great one in his own right, even if not the best talmudist. But as far as knowledge of Judaism, philosophy and hashkafa, he was second to none.    His commentaries were focused in pshat, and his writings very philosophical.   

Reform are a bunch of liars and frauds.   And it appeared on the scene almost 100 years after Mendelsohn's death!

Yes that was the point I was trying to make. But there was a single figure that was responsible and I forgot his name. I had to write a paper in Grade 12 Jewish History with the topic "Was Mendelsohn the father of Reform?" I concluded no he wasn't and  have reasons why that other guy was responsible for it.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Let's bring this convo back to procreation...

[The One and Only Mo]

Chaim's was a great answer. Gentiles should procreate but don't get punished if they don't. When Jews enter the heavenly court after they die they are asked if they tried to have children. I don't think Gentiles are asked this.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yeah, but I had a final question--will Gentiles who could have procreated, but refused to, be judged. I want to see what Chaim thinks on that.

[The One and Only Mo]

Yeah, but I had a final question--will Gentiles who could have procreated, but refused to, be judged. I want to see what Chaim thinks on that.

I'd have to put my $ on no. But I think Hashem understands if Gentiles have reasons. Bones, it is important for you to know that if a child sees his father and his rebbe (man who teaches him Torah) both struggling with heavy loads, the child has to help the rebbe first THEN the father. Why? Because the father brings the child into this world, but the rebbe, with teaching Torah, send the child into the next world. Similarly, you must save your rebbe's life over your father's. If the father teaches you Torah then the rule applies to saving the father first.
Also, in the Torah, Hashem calls Aaron's sons "Aaron's and Moses's son". Why? Because Moses taught them Torah and therefore was a father to them. So a Jewish man must not only have children but there are several things he is required to do for his son. The gemara or Mishna states 1)Teach son a trade 2)Teach son to swim 3)Teach son Torah 4) Marry son off. There might be 1 or 2 more.

[Rubystars]

Are you talking about Martin Luther, of the Protestant Reformation that was a vicious anti-Semite (and a geocentrist, lol).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.

what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

I will leave it at this... I am a bit upset about thinking about the Passion movie and may say something without thinking properly.

Wrong thread, dude.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, whatever, it's a good thing, you righteous gentiles, get busy making babies. 

Amen.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Are you talking about Martin Luther, of the Protestant Reformation that was a vicious anti-Semite (and a geocentrist, lol).

Don't get me started on him.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Yeah, but I had a final question--will Gentiles who could have procreated, but refused to, be judged. I want to see what Chaim thinks on that.

The Rabbis of the Talmud do not believe that righteous gentiles will be punished if they decide not to have children. The righteous gentiles will be blessed if they do have children, but will not be punished if they do not.

I'll try to explain this with an analogy:

There are elite fighting units in the Israeli army. All of the soldiers in the units are volunteers, because the training is so vigorous and harsh, and because these units are placed in the most dangerous combat situations. If someone volunteers for these units, they are "blessed" by Israeli society as heroes and the finest soldiers in the military. But if someone does not volunteer, no one blames them or punishes them or condemns them. In other words, you get blessed if you volunteer, but you don't get scorned if you don't.

The righteous gentiles who have children and raise them properly will be blessed and rewarded. But those who don't will not be punished.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I sort of understand what you are getting at from my Christian perspective. The Apostle Paul in the New Testament states that it is ideal to remain permanently single, but that it is not wrong to marry. Is that anything like what you mean here?

Are there any rabbinic sources that teach that it is absolutely mandatory for all human beings to have children (as much as they are able)?

Finally, do we know for a fact that Naaman is in heaven?