Author Topic: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US  (Read 5552 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2009, 07:47:29 PM »
The hot air I was referring to is the so-called "resistance" put up against leftwing govt's.    I already cited you a number of examples from WHILE OLMERT WAS IN OFFICE.
I never said it was ENOUGH resistance--just that it was more with the leftist than the phony rightist.

Compare the Israeli resistance at Amona, a relatively small settlement, when Olmert was in power, to all of the resistance for Gaza.

BS.   The physical resistance at Amona was mostly due to lessons learned from the Gush Katif failure, and also the difference in ideology between the groups in these two places (Just to give you a hint, Gush Katif was very different place of settlers than those who filled up Amona and came to defend it).[/quote]
And also because average "settlers" (I really hate that term, I prefer pioneers) were now facing a regime that OVERTLY hated them.

Quote
Gush Katif resistance failed not because of the reasons you say.   It failed because of unwillingness to do what was necessary (would be true under rightwing or leftwing govt leadership - no difference there, both represent Israeli state which many are unwilling to oppose even if it's an evil policy against themselves), and because of active betrayal from within.
Quote
Yes, I am very aware of the perfidy wrought by the so-called Yesha Council, but at the same time facts are facts. Arik Sharon had a trumped-up reputation as a great war hero and stalwart opponent of any concessions. Israelis had a lot more personal respect for him than they do Olmert or Barak. That's undeniable. That is 100% established fact

Yeah, so what?   Lots of people respected Sharon, big deal.   What does it have to do with anything?    The motivation to support his evil plan was not based on "respect for Sharon."   And the opposition was also not based on whether they respected him or not.   I'm sure that out of those who opposed it, many of them had respected sharon in the past or might have even still respected him, even tho they were willing to fight against him.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:58:55 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2009, 07:54:42 PM »
THIS lulled a lot of sincere rightists into not resisting with any more means than by chanting and singing songs to the Nazi soldiers and cops.

Again, this is not why they did those things.   You have oversimplified the issue, and this is simply not so.   They did not sing and dance with expulsion forces because they liked Sharon.    You missed the boat on what happened in Gush Katif.

Here, start with this video.
http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/2009/07/yesha-council-modern-day-spies-film.html
It's posted there in 4 parts.

This will explain that it had nothing to do with Sharon.   It had to do with "rabbis" and yesha council leaders and even settlers themselves who have a certain ideology.    With their ideology it makes no difference whether Sharon runs Israel or whether Dorit Beinisch runs Israel.   Look at Zambish, bentzi-lieberman, Rabbi Aviner, etc..... Do you see them citing 'Sharon is great' or 'the policy is correct'  or "this will improve israel's security"  when they try to calm down/sabotage the opposition to expulsion ?   NO.     And those rabbis who said to hug expulsion officers, they also did not say that Sharon is right in what he's doing.     They said 'we have to obey'   'we cannot oppose state of Israel' 'a Jew cannot fight a Jew' ....... etc

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2009, 07:58:31 PM »
Quote
But because the end result is the same.     The govt goes thru with its plan undeterred.    And that is GUARANTEED by the hot air of angry editorials, cab-driver criticism, and public discomfort with - the left.
You are correct, there is a whole lot more public outrage when the Israeli honest-left does horrible things than when the Israeli phony-right does.
[/quote]

You're missing the point.   "Outrage" expressed in the form of angry editorials, cab-driver critiques, and overall public dislike of the PM, does not accomplish anything except an unhappy public.  That is meaningless.      There is still only a small core of people who will ideologically stand against the evil, whether right or left.   Those who won't, won't - whether the leader is right or left.      If that small core has the  "sympathy" of the general public, or the "disproval" of the general public is completely irrelevant.   The general public sits on its duff.   What matters is if that core succeeds.   The same stumbling blocks are in place whether the govt is leftist or rightist.   But with leftist govt, you are just guaranteed more evil policy to oppose and fight against.   And that makes it harder because you can't fight everything and have to split up your resources....

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2009, 08:03:40 PM »
Look at Zambish, bentzi-lieberman, Rabbi Aviner, etc..... Do you see them citing 'Sharon is great' or 'the policy is correct'  or "this will improve israel's security"  when they try to calm down/sabotage the opposition to expulsion ?   NO.     And those rabbis who said to hug expulsion officers, they also did not say that Sharon is right in what he's doing.     They said 'we have to obey'   'we cannot oppose state of Israel' 'a Jew cannot fight a Jew' ....... etc
No, I never said they did. I never said they AGREED with him--I said that they could not bring themselves to violently resist a "hawkish" PM who had such an established and decorated history as a war hero.

Since Olmert and Co. are overtly against the pioneers and openly anti-Torah, it is much easier for the above figures to support physical resistance to their schemes.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2009, 08:04:39 PM »
The reason for the difference between Amona and Gush Katif is in my opinion twofold.   On the one-hand, most of the Gush Katif residents besides being righteous "settlers" and nationalistic Jews (both religious and secular there) and the pride of the country if you ask me, amongst most of them the happy-go-lucky heretical mamlachtiut (and associated rabbis) was prevalent.   They were not willing to really resist in a meaningful way and take "hostile" action to prevent the govt's plans - for the most part.    Amona, those who filled up the line of buildings there, and those who showed up to defend it, were not like that.     #2, at Amona people learned from the mistakes made at gush katif (including those who showed up to really resist but were deterred by the masses and their unwillingness and/or by the sabotage of the whole resistance movement from within), they learned this lesson and did not have the yesha-council- albatross preventing them from taking action this time around.  So more ideologically sound people showed up, who were more willing to fight, and less yesha council interference.   That produced the recipe for the difference between amona and gush katif.   NOT whether Olmert ordered it or whether Begin could have ordered it.       (he's the most popular PM of all time in Israel - and even the right still generally looks at him fondly despite his mistakes as PM)
 
And if Chaim disagrees with that, which I think you might say so,  then I strongly disagree with him.   But lets find out from Chaim, that would be interesting to hear what he has to say.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 08:10:27 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2009, 08:06:33 PM »
Look at Zambish, bentzi-lieberman, Rabbi Aviner, etc..... Do you see them citing 'Sharon is great' or 'the policy is correct'  or "this will improve israel's security"  when they try to calm down/sabotage the opposition to expulsion ?   NO.     And those rabbis who said to hug expulsion officers, they also did not say that Sharon is right in what he's doing.     They said 'we have to obey'   'we cannot oppose state of Israel' 'a Jew cannot fight a Jew' ....... etc
No, I never said they did. I never said they AGREED with him--I said that they could not bring themselves to violently resist a "hawkish" PM who had such an established and decorated history as a war hero.

Nor would they resist a dove-ish leader like Olmert (he used to be rightwing too, remember?   So I'm not sure I see the big contrast there... THEY WERE BOTH KADIMA!)......  Nor would they resist a decorated mossad agent like Livni, nor a judge turned prime minister (God forbid, and G-d help us), Dorit Beinish if she was the 'elected leader' of Israel.   That's where I think you just don't understand.

And as far as "anti Torah" etc.... Sharon was secular so is Olmert and almost everyone.   That isn't the point here either.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2009, 08:11:09 PM »
Olmert was never a war-hero, never pretended to oppose concessions, and at times appeared to openly disagree with the Sharon government. In 2002 when he was mayor of Yerushalayim, he for example would loudly demand that the IDF "conduct itself honorably" in battle (whatever the hell that means).

Even by the phony standards of the Israeli right-wing establishment, Olmert was always a Likud "RINO".

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2009, 08:15:03 PM »
Olmert was never a war-hero, never pretended to oppose concessions, and at times appeared to openly disagree with the Sharon government. In 2002 when he was mayor of Yerushalayim, he for example would loudly demand that the IDF "conduct itself honorably" in battle (whatever the hell that means).

Even by the phony standards of the Israeli right-wing establishment, Olmert was always a Likud "RINO".

He was to the left of Kahane, but he was always perceived as rightwing by the general public, just as Sharon was.  Only Olmert wasn't such a loose cannon, and was not a war hero or famous general, you're right.   But he was a former 'rightwing' turned left.   At least former likud turned left. 

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2009, 08:20:39 PM »
That produced the recipe for the difference between amona and gush katif.   NOT whether Olmert ordered it or whether Begin could have ordered it.       (he's the most popular PM of all time in Israel - and even the right still generally looks at him fondly despite his mistakes as PM)
You hit the nail on the head with the sentence I have bolded. Begin is still to this very day thought of as a "right-wing zealot" who was "forced" into evil compromises by Carter. Because of his pioneer exploits with the Irgun, Begin is viewed as pretty much untouchable by even the most hardcore Israeli rightists. Even Chaim refuses to harshly denounce him, which I disagree with. I think that Scripture speaks to individuals like Begin very well:
Quote from: Ezekiel 18:26
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
Because Begin was a real "hardcore hawk", he was able to get essentially unanimous support for his hideous Sinai retreat. To this very day, the Sinai retreat and resultant so-called "peace with Egypt" is the third rail of Israeli politics--nobody dares oppose it in hindsight. I can promise you that if Golda Meir had tried to evacuate the Sinai she would have met with ferocious resistance from average Israelis and the IDF itself (it was less brainwashed then), and that if she had succeeded with it many "rightist" Israeli commentators today would attack her ferociously in hindsight.
 
Quote
And if Chaim disagrees with that, which I think you might say so,  then I strongly disagree with him.   But lets find out from Chaim, that would be interesting to hear what he has to say.
He's said this many times over--that it is much harder for the right to "wake up" when a phony rightist is in office.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2009, 08:24:06 PM »
He was to the left of Kahane, but he was always perceived as rightwing by the general public, just as Sharon was.  Only Olmert wasn't such a loose cannon, and was not a war hero or famous general, you're right.   But he was a former 'rightwing' turned left.   At least former likud turned left. 
He was only "right-wing" in that he belonged to Likud. At one time Likud's platform called for total opposition to withdrawals and surrenders. No, it was never practiced, but publicly all the members of Likud were lockstep behind it. Olmert never was. Even at the height of the intifada in 2002, when shahids were murdering something like 75 Israelis per week (may G-d avenge their blood), he was publicly insisting that military campaigns be "humane".

Moshe92

  • Guest
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2009, 08:54:19 PM »
The Yesha Council isn't so right wing itself, but the leader of the Yesha Council said that Netanyahu is worse than Olmert.

Here is a Hebrew article.  http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/193485

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2009, 09:00:01 PM »
The Yesha Council isn't so right wing itself, but the leader of the Yesha Council said that Netanyahu is worse than Olmert.

Here is a Hebrew article.  http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/193485
Anything the YC says is not to be trusted, but there is some truth to this. So far, the pioneer activists have not done a good job of setting up to resist Lewinsky's expulsions (which have been small-scale to date, but that can change anytime).

Offline Hyades

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1417
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2009, 03:51:44 AM »
Gesture to US or gesture to Barack Osama running (down the drain) the US?  >:(

Offline MarZutra

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3663
    • BLOODBATH OF THE LEFT
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2009, 09:20:59 AM »
A good gesture to the US would be to withdraw from the UN, mobilize the IDF, bomb Mecca, wipe out Iran and drive out all the Jew hating Muhammadan savages from Eretz.  Sorry for my intolerance towards such progressive, open minded and truly tolerant aspect of pluralist Muhammadan society....
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline MarZutra

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3663
    • BLOODBATH OF THE LEFT
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2009, 01:36:36 PM »
You are a filthy Muhammadan savage. May you all perish!  GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2009, 09:36:32 PM »
That produced the recipe for the difference between amona and gush katif.   NOT whether Olmert ordered it or whether Begin could have ordered it.       (he's the most popular PM of all time in Israel - and even the right still generally looks at him fondly despite his mistakes as PM)
You hit the nail on the head with the sentence I have bolded. Begin is still to this very day thought of as a "right-wing zealot"

No.  Not a 'rightwing zealot.'  Not a zealot at all.   He is thought of as nationalist who wanted to unite his people and wanted equal treatment for all Jews.    Yes, much of the country praises him because they value the peace agreement he made with Egypt.    But in terms of the rightwing, even if he made mistakes as a Prime Minister, you can't really turn the guy into some kind of villain.   Look at his life accomplishments.   He was a Jewish hero.   Everyone even the left, recognizes that.    He was a poor PM.   But out of all them, he was a Jewish hero.  A real idealist and a man amongst boys.   I can't see any comparison with him out of all prime ministers.   THAT is what I meant.    And everyone, from left to right generally recognizes that.

Quote
who was "forced" into evil compromises by Carter.


He wasn't forced but he WAS pressured and was deceived by sadat (as well as carter).   If you can't see that you simply are unwilling to consult the history.    From what I understand, later in his life Begin regretted his mistake of giving away Sinai.   So that makes your citing of verse even more inappropriate, but it was wrong in the first place.   Begin is not in a league with modern day mafiosos/money-buys-everything Israeli politicians like Olmert and Sharon.   They can't even shine his shoes.

Quote
Because Begin was a real "hardcore hawk", he was able to get essentially unanimous support for his hideous Sinai retreat.

You use strange terms.   "Hardcore" hawk?   What is that exactly?   Don't know of any Israeli that uses a term like that.   In any event, it wasn't for this reason that the people agreed with the peace accords.   You again are trying to superimpose an oversimplification of your own making onto what happened.  The people wanted peace with Egypt because Egypt had launched 2 invasions of Israel over the course of a 7 year period ( as well as the invasion they lost in the independence war) and maintained open hostility to Israel that was seemingly not going to end.   But Israelis had no reason to NOT want it to end.   They thought, if peace is real here, it means we won't have to fight these animals anymore.   No more all-out-wars like we had in 67 and 73.    What is bad about that?    Problem was it was not real peace.   I don't think people were saying "Well Begin is really rightwing so even though I don't trust sadat, Begin will protect me I have faith in him."   The people were enamored with Sadat and his "gracious" visit to knesset.  There was a hysteria.   A national hysteria.    The left and centrists supported it because they wanted peace.  No more wars against egyptian garbage.   The right some were probably deceived by Sadat... And those who weren't deceived by Sadat, I don't believe they would support Begin on that.    You pretend that Israelis are mindless.   They aren't.   If I think I smell a rat, I don't just say oh well so-and-so says its ok, so there's no rat......  Do you?

Quote
I can promise you that if Golda Meir had tried to evacuate the Sinai she would have met with ferocious resistance from average Israelis and the IDF itself


Based on what?  You just made this up.   Israelis would be equally supportive of her peacemaking if she had done it rather than begin.   If she was the one saying  'no more bloodshed" and shaking sadat's hand she'd be heralded by the "peace delusional" to this day.    And the same ones who oppose Begin on the right, would also oppose Meir.   Where do you get the idea that no one questions that move today?    The majority of Israelis agrees with it for many reasons.   But the rightwing/kahanists/settlers.... They don't.
 
Quote
Quote
And if Chaim disagrees with that, which I think you might say so,  then I strongly disagree with him.   But lets find out from Chaim, that would be interesting to hear what he has to say.
He's said this many times over--that it is much harder for the right to "wake up" when a phony rightist is in office.


But I'm already awake.   And so is that small core who is ideologically willing to oppose the evil of the Israeli govt.    You might be confusing the situation of America with that of Israel.   In America, people wake up and then their 'angry letters' 'lobbying' calling congressman, staging rallies and protests, etc, all exercises of the democratic system, actually affect change.   This type of "cab driver criticism" really does achieve things in America.   It doesn't in Israel.   So that is irrelevant.  It means nothing in Israel.   It does not stop the judicial tyranny there.   The more leftwing govt, the more leftwing judicial tyranny and evil policy, plain and simple.     "Awake" or not, a person in Israel has to be willing.   Only a small core in the rightwing is.   
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 09:41:38 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2009, 09:37:08 PM »
He was to the left of Kahane, but he was always perceived as rightwing by the general public, just as Sharon was.  Only Olmert wasn't such a loose cannon, and was not a war hero or famous general, you're right.   But he was a former 'rightwing' turned left.   At least former likud turned left. 
He was only "right-wing" in that he belonged to Likud. At one time Likud's platform called for total opposition to withdrawals and surrenders. No, it was never practiced, but publicly all the members of Likud were lockstep behind it. Olmert never was. Even at the height of the intifada in 2002, when shahids were murdering something like 75 Israelis per week (may G-d avenge their blood), he was publicly insisting that military campaigns be "humane".

You do realize that Olmert was a politician way before 2002 right?   I hope so.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2009, 09:38:13 PM »
Can't say I'm surprised >:(

Offline MarZutra

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3663
    • BLOODBATH OF THE LEFT
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2009, 09:49:23 PM »
Begin sunk into immense depression after giving away the Sinai.  He realized that nothing good would come of it and spent the rest of his life living in recluse.  A sad end for such a good man.  The only problem I saw with Begin was due to Yitzak Shamir.  When Begin was forming his government he looked towards relatively like minded people.  Begin sent Shamir to Rabbi Kahane's home to discuss politics and learn about Kahane.  Thanks to Shamir not being a G-d fearing man, he went back to Begin telling to stay away from Kahane he is an "extremist".  - From Shamir's autobiography: "Summing Up".

Begin, had Kahane been in his cabinet, would never have given away the Sinai and if pressured or forced into doing so, Kahane would had of forced conditions, perhaps taking all the Arabs with it. 
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline amit85

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2009, 02:13:10 AM »
Phony right is much worse than left.

How so?   Isn't it just the same?   If the result is the same, what's the difference? 
They are same when they are in power. However in opposition phony right behaves as real right. So here whats we get: when Avoda (Kadima) are in power we have a strong right opposition that can prevent many crazy initiatives (not always unfortunately). When Likud is in power we dont have any opposition.

99% of Muslims give the rest a bad name.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2009, 04:57:04 PM »
Two thumbs down

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2009, 06:40:19 PM »
Not a 'rightwing zealot.'  Not a zealot at all.
OK, fine, forget my paraphrase of the buzzwords that are used by the Bolshevik left to describe him to this very day. The worldwide left still considers him a fierce militant, and the Israeli right still considers him a hero.

Quote
He is thought of as nationalist who wanted to unite his people and wanted equal treatment for all Jews.
Too bad his actions as PM showed otherwise.

Quote
Yes, much of the country praises him because they value the peace agreement he made with Egypt.
Israel is full of brainwashed, complacent, conformist people--on the left AND on the so-called "right".

Quote
But in terms of the rightwing, even if he made mistakes as a Prime Minister, you can't really turn the guy into some kind of villain.
Says who?

Quote
Look at his life accomplishments.   He was a Jewish hero.   Everyone even the left, recognizes that.
He was a Jewish hero in his youth, yes. In his later years he was something else.

Quote
He was a poor PM.   But out of all them, he was a Jewish hero.  A real idealist and a man amongst boys.
How can you be a poor leader and a hero yet at the same time? If I were to call any PM a "Jewish hero", it would be Levi Eshkol.

Quote
I can't see any comparison with him out of all prime ministers.   THAT is what I meant.    And everyone, from left to right generally recognizes that.
And this is very unfortunate. Because he has this ridiculous aura of greatness, he's essentially untouchable (even more so, in a way, than that alcoholic parasite Rabin). What I mean, is, that the left still attacks him for not being suicidal enough (lol!), nobody ever criticizes the logic of Camp David itself or argues that it was a bad idea for Israel.

Quote
He wasn't forced but he WAS pressured and was deceived by sadat (as well as carter).
Sadat was a two-bit sand negro coon. Everybody knew that and everybody knew that he was a paper tiger by that stage. The reason he had so much success for the first week of his Yom Kippur jihad was because he caught the Bolshevized Golda Meir IDF with its pants down. As soon as the IDF woke up and properly mobilized, Israel (despite having lost most of its tank force) mopped up the sand with those negroes pretty roundly. If it wasn't for the hollering of the Jew-hater Nixon, Israeli infantry could have sacked Cairo and Damascus in a few more days.

Quote
If you can't see that you simply are unwilling to consult the history.
I am not denying that Sadat tried his best taqqiyah with Begin, but he knew Egypt was the mortal enemy. Ultimately, the key player was Israel's "ally" Jimmy Carter.

Quote
From what I understand, later in his life Begin regretted his mistake of giving away Sinai.
Oh, really? Where did you see that? Did he ever PUBLICLY express his regret and apologize? Did he ever use any of his influence to argue against later land-for-peace deals or tell Reagan and GWB1 where to shove it? Did he raise his voice for Jonathan Pollard? The answers to those would be no, no, and no. Some footnotes in his memoirs or something he privately told his best friend don't count. Even after leaving office, he had the voice, clout, and prestige to be a powerful player, and he was simply too big of a force for the Bolshevik government to throw in the gulag. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Quote
So that makes your citing of verse even more inappropriate, but it was wrong in the first place.
Wrong? How so? The Bible verse I cited was very simple and straightforward. Are you trying to say that it WASN'T a sin for him to cave to world pressure and stab the Jews in the back?

Quote
Begin is not in a league with modern day mafiosos/money-buys-everything Israeli politicians like Olmert and Sharon.   They can't even shine his shoes.
Comparing "bad" and "evil" is a choice we sometimes need to make in presidential elections, but it's no standard for righteousness in the elemental sense. Hitler tried to exterminate every last Jewish man, woman, and child on the planet. Stalin was fine with letting Jews who gave up their faith and became faithful little communists who worshipped him live. Does this mean that Hitler "wasn't fit to shine Stalin's shoes"?

Quote
You use strange terms.   "Hardcore" hawk?   What is that exactly?   Don't know of any Israeli that uses a term like that.
Forget it already... you know what I was trying to say.

Quote
In any event, it wasn't for this reason that the people agreed with the peace accords.   You again are trying to superimpose an oversimplification of your own making onto what happened.
The reason, then and now, is that the Israeli public is inherently trusting and goes along with the government, especially one with such a huge right-wing, nationalistic reputation as Begin's.

Quote
The people wanted peace with Egypt because Egypt had launched 2 invasions of Israel over the course of a 7 year period ( as well as the invasion they lost in the independence war) and maintained open hostility to Israel that was seemingly not going to end.
Egypt had its camelass handed to it in 1967, and after Israel was able to heroically mobilize against a total two-front onslaught from a state of zero percent readiness (worse than when Poland was attacked by the Nazis and Soviets simultaneously), it whupped Egypt pretty soundly in '73 too.

Quote
But Israelis had no reason to NOT want it to end.   They thought, if peace is real here, it means we won't have to fight these animals anymore.
Yes, that is the difference between Jews then, now, and probably forever (barring a miraculous transformation of heart) and Amalek. Jews don't eat, breathe, sleep, and dream murder, even when they are facing a Shoah. Even during the actual German Shoah, most Jews would not even think of violently resisting the Nazis. Anne Frank wrote in her journal that she did not hate the Germans, and 98% of all Jewry (excepting the Jabotinskyites and the heroic Warsaw Ghetto heroes, may G-d avenge their blood), to the very end, felt like there was no choice but to march like cattle to the slaughterhouse. They said Ze'ev Jabotinsky was crazy and refused to listen to his call to arms. Thirty years later, when the Jews were well-armed and had a chance to do what G-d commanded and Joshua actually did to the Amalekite scum of the Middle East, they choked.

Quote
No more all-out-wars like we had in 67 and 73.
Again, this goes back to the Jewish pacifistic mindset. Jews just don't love death, which has been a tragic thing for them many times. If Israel had the will Egypt could have been rendered completely "Arabrein" in either of those wars. Jews are human beings who have a conscience, and that conscience unfortunately rears its head at the least opportune times. They are always feeling bad for the scummiest slime of the world and fearing the opinions of the goyim.

Quote
What is bad about that? Problem was it was not real peace.
The problem is that the vast majority of Jews worldwide, Israel included, have completely lost the warrior heart that G-d gave them at Horeb.

Quote
I don't think people were saying "Well Begin is really rightwing so even though I don't trust sadat, Begin will protect me I have faith in him."
What is a secular Israeli to do? They have to have faith in something/someone, it's human nature. This is exactly why most Israelis supported the Gush Katif ethnic cleansing.

Quote
The people were enamored with Sadat and his "gracious" visit to knesset.  There was a hysteria.   A national hysteria.    The left and centrists supported it because they wanted peace.  No more wars against egyptian garbage.   The right some were probably deceived by Sadat... And those who weren't deceived by Sadat, I don't believe they would support Begin on that.
Nobody on the so-called right spoke up against Begin. Literally only a tiny handful of pioneers did--much smaller than the number that tried to resist Gush Katif.

Quote
You pretend that Israelis are mindless. They aren't.
Unfortunately, most major Israeli opinion polls and election results say otherwise. Kadima got the single largest vote of any party in this spring's election, for instance.

Quote
If I think I smell a rat, I don't just say oh well so-and-so says its ok, so there's no rat......  Do you?
First of all, expulsions of Jews had never been tried before. There wasn't a precedent. Secondly, the Bolshevik propaganda of the Israeli establishment--which the so-called "hero" embraced--convinced almost all of the right, which should have known better, that this was needed.

Quote
I can promise you that if Golda Meir had tried to evacuate the Sinai she would have met with ferocious resistance from average Israelis and the IDF itself

Based on everything. Compare her reputation to Begin's. Compare her approval ratings. Remember the taste that her military demoblilization had left in the aftermath of 1973. I'm not saying she would not have succeeded, but she would have had a much bigger fight than Begin did.

Quote
Based on what?  You just made this up.   Israelis would be equally supportive of her peacemaking if she had done it rather than begin.
If this is so, then they were even crazier then I thought, but I don't think so.

Quote
If she was the one saying  'no more bloodshed" and shaking sadat's hand she'd be heralded by the "peace delusional" to this day.
No, I don't think so at all. The left would worship her like they do Rabin, but they would not be able to sell the whole nation on it. The Israeli mainstream right would condemn her (even if in practice they support the exact same things).   

Quote
And the same ones who oppose Begin on the right
For all practical purposes right-wing opposition to Begin was (and is) nonexistent.

Quote
Where do you get the idea that no one questions that move today?    The majority of Israelis agrees with it for many reasons.   But the rightwing/kahanists/settlers.... They don't.
Here is what I mean. I mean that opposing the Sinai retreat in hindsight today is considered a fringe position. If any Israeli were to start attacking it and accusing Begin of selling-out or denying that it brought real peace, people on all sides of the spectrum would consider him or her insane. The same is not true of criticism of Gush Katif. If I am not mistaken a huge percentage of Israelis (around 50%) have very big doubts about the Gaza expulsion in hindsight, and Israeli pundits (some of them not even that right-wing) criticize it all the time. It's not a blacklistable or fringe position.
 
Quote
And if Chaim disagrees with that, which I think you might say so,  then I strongly disagree with him.   But lets find out from Chaim, that would be interesting to hear what he has to say.
I know what he's said before on Ask JTFs about him.

Quote
But I'm already awake.   And so is that small core who is ideologically willing to oppose the evil of the Israeli govt.
Even today the Kahanists are a very small minority even within the Israeli right. Most members of the Israeli so-called right haven't awakened, and still think Likud is the best/only choice.

Quote
You might be confusing the situation of America with that of Israel.   In America, people wake up and then their 'angry letters' 'lobbying' calling congressman, staging rallies and protests, etc, all exercises of the democratic system, actually affect change.   This type of "cab driver criticism" really does achieve things in America.   It doesn't in Israel.
OK, here is what I mean. Most Israelis will not stand up and physically resist evil left-wing decisions. They certainly are willing to stand UP for evil left-wing policies though. During the Second Lebanon War, even at the height of the Hezbollah missile barrage across the northern half of Israel, the streets of Tel Aviv were jam-packed with freaks and mutants railing against the "targeting of Lebanese civilians". I don't even need to count the times that all public life in Israel has been brought to a standstill by Histadrut commie strikes. If the right used even half of that much force and strength in Israel, it would be almost impossible for evil Bolsheviks to implement what they do.

Quote
So that is irrelevant.  It means nothing in Israel.   It does not stop the judicial tyranny there.   The more leftwing govt, the more leftwing judicial tyranny and evil policy, plain and simple.     "Awake" or not, a person in Israel has to be willing.   Only a small core in the rightwing is.   
Yes, you are sadly correct. The vast majority of Israelis have been raised to be obedient to the "Jewish democracy" of the Israeli government--left, right, and center. There are plenty of Israelis who in their hearts are as right-wing as we are, but any sort of resistance is simply unthinkable to them. It's not even on their radar.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963

Offline Muck DeFuslims

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2009, 09:47:24 PM »
I don't think it's fair to evaluate the life of Begin, his tenure as PM, or his contributions to Israel and the Jewish People, solely on the legacy of Camp David.

Yes, from a right wing or Kahanist standpoint, relinquishing the Sinai and the multi-lateral agreements with Egypt/Sadat/Carter/USA were wrong in principle and ultimately detrimental to Israel. Of that, there can be little doubt.

But it's intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to evaluate Begin's life and career based on his unfortunate performance at Camp David alone.

Begin's early contributions can not and should not be dismissed. He was a great leader and a great man. A brave and tireless fighter for Israel.

Those of us old enough to remember him becoming PM, remember the galvanizing effect his election had on the right wing. It seemed like one of our own was in charge now and things would certainly move in the right direction. The right appeared to be invigorated and the influence of the left was waning.

Alas, we were to be disappointed.

There were some bright moments.

Who can forget Begin pounding the table at his press conference defending the raid on Osirak, saying 'We acted NOW !'

If only there were more moments like that (We can definitely use a moment like that now).

Instead, the right's exuberance over Begin waned during the fiasco in Lebanon and dissipated at Camp David.

Still, when looking at the totality of the life of Begin, I can't help but have fond feelings for the man. Despite his shortcomings and mistakes as PM, I still consider him a Jewish hero and a great man. Right or wrong, I'll always feel that way.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2009, 09:59:15 PM »
Not a 'rightwing zealot.'  Not a zealot at all.
OK, fine, forget my paraphrase of the buzzwords that are used by the Bolshevik left to describe him to this very day. The worldwide left still considers him a fierce militant,


Maybe great britain does, but that's because he WAS a fierce militant against them, thank God.    But we were talking about Israelis.  Not brits or any other leftists.