Learn history - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information

[Manch]

I saw some very uninformed statements about role of the USSR in the WWII. Please people, get some real, academically sound books, read memoirs of Soviet and German generals, look at statistics before making a fool out yourself by asserting that USSR just "helped" to win WWII.

Just a small example that illustrates who really defeated nazi beasts and the attitude of the opposing forces. Wenck's 12th army and the remnants of the German 9th army (destroyed by Red Army) were senselessly fighting advancing Red Army just to surrender to American forces. German guns continued to fire on advancing Red Army troops and Americans on the other side of Elba river watched and did nothing! Majority of German POWs on that day hoped and believed that Americans are going to join with Germans to drive out invading Soviet Army. Until allied invasion in 1944, more the 90% of Wehrmacht's best troops and best equipment were engaged in the Eastern front as most of the Romanian, Finnish and Hungarian armed forces. Italians had a contingent in USSR that was larger than their Afrika Corp. There was a Spannish "Blue Division", French LVB and later SS Charlemagne division (last defenders of Reichstag), Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian SS divisions, Belgian, Dutch - Nordland and Viking SS Divisions, etc, etc.

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

[t_h_j]

here is a great  book on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/When-Titans-Clashed-Stopped-Studies/dp/0700608990

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

You don't think that this was significant? In 1941 and early 1942, the Soviet industrial base was shot. Without trucks and tank engines and suitable planes (and in 1941-2, the majority of planes in the VVS were nowhere near modern), the Red army would have come to a grinding halt.

[Zelhar]

USSR enabled the breaking of the war by Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement. Without the Lend-Lease and the Air campaign, the USSR would have lost. But its true that they contributed the most killing. Too bad their killing it was not limited only to the Nazis and their allies.

The fact is that the USSR didn't liberate any nation, it simply supplanted Germany as the occupier.

[Manch]

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

You don't think that this was significant? In 1941 and early 1942, the Soviet industrial base was shot. Without trucks and tank engines and suitable planes (and in 1941-2, the majority of planes in the VVS were nowhere near modern), the Red army would have come to a grinding halt.

Bones,
I am not one of those morons on the other side of the debate to say that US/UK help was insignificant, particularly in 1942. It was instrumental in USSR turning the tide in 1942/1943 But the gist of what I am saying is let's keep in perspective - there is a huge difference between those who helped and those who fought the war to break nazi's neck

[Manch]

USSR enabled the breaking of the war by Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement. Without the Lend-Lease and the Air campaign, the USSR would have lost. But its true that they contributed the most killing. Too bad their killing it was not limited only to the Nazis and their allies.

The fact is that the USSR didn't liberate any nation, it simply supplanted Germany as the occupier.

I disagree - You can't compare Soviet occupation and Nazi one. USSR would never lose to Germans, with or without US help. There would be more losses, but the whole continental Europe would be captured by commies

[Zelhar]

I don't compare. But the Soviets were not liberators, and they were evil. Just think what would happen if instead of Bolsheviks, Russia was under a semi-democratic Kerensky type or regime.

It is too speculative to guess the result of Germany vs. Russia without western allies. But I think without the mad man Hitler, Germany could subdue Russia in 1942. BTW, here is another "what if" scenario- Had Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking the USA, what do you think would have happened ?

[t_h_j]

I don't compare. But the Soviets were not liberators, and they were evil. Just think what would happen if instead of Bolsheviks, Russia was under a semi-democratic Kerensky type or regime.

It is too speculative to guess the result of Germany vs. Russia without western allies. But I think without the mad man Hitler, Germany could subdue Russia in 1942. BTW, here is another "what if" scenario- Had Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking the USA, what do you think would have happened ?

the japanese didn't invade the ussr because zhukov humiliated them in 1939 at khalkhin gol.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The Soviet Japanese expedition was a rather marginal, fringe detachment that did not use Japan's elite, frontline units. Yes, it is true that the Red Army was tougher (thanks to their vast superiority in armor technology primarily), but they never got to face the cream of Hirohito's crop either. Also, the Japanese air force would have made mincemeat of the crude and primitive VVS.

[Spectator]

It is too speculative to guess the result of Germany vs. Russia without western allies. But I think without the mad man Hitler, Germany could subdue Russia in 1942. BTW, here is another "what if" scenario- Had Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking the USA, what do you think would have happened ?

I think if the Allies didn't open the second front in Western Europe after the Stalingrad battle, the Soviets would have conquered the whole Europe.

But if the West didn't do anything from the beginning of the war, the USSR would have lost. Just think about the German armies of Erwin Rommel that fought in Africa, they could have been used against the Soviets too. Plus all the military might of Japan would strike Russia from the East. In this scenario, the Nazis would certainly captured Moscow and Leningrad and pushed Russian east of the Ural mountains. Plus Germans were rather close to the creation of atomic bomb, and in this scenario they would have time to invent and produce it. They would have nuked the remaining Soviet territory.

[t_h_j]

The Soviet Japanese expedition was a rather marginal, fringe detachment that did not use Japan's elite, frontline units. Yes, it is true that the Red Army was tougher (thanks to their vast superiority in armor technology primarily), but they never got to face the cream of Hirohito's crop either. Also, the Japanese air force would have made mincemeat of the crude and primitive VVS.

like they did at klalkhin gol?  If you want to see how an entire japanses army would have faird against the Soviets, look up operation august storm

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think if the Allies didn't open the second front in Western Europe after the Stalingrad battle, the Soviets would have conquered the whole Europe.

After Stalingrad, the Nazi war colossus was being increasingly worn down by U.S. bombing raids, the fall of North Africa, and the new front in Italy. Without all of those things, it is far from certain that even in 1943, the Russians would have won the war.

But if the West didn't do anything from the beginning of the war, the USSR would have lost.

I don't see how any serious historian could disagree with that.

Just think about the German armies of Erwin Rommel that fought in Africa, they could have been used against the Soviets too.

Without a North African front, Russia probably would have fallen by the end of 1941. Without the great losses that the RAF wreaked on the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain the year before, Russia almost certainly would have fallen well before the end of '41 even with all the Lend-Lease in the world. That was the cream of the Nazi airforce and Nazi pilots that had to fight modern Western pilots were more hardened than those who were only experienced with inferior Soviet planes/pilots.

Plus all the military might of Japan would strike Russia from the East.

Thank G-d Tojo decided against that.

In this scenario, the Nazis would certainly captured Moscow and Leningrad and pushed Russian east of the Ural mountains. Plus Germans were rather close to the creation of atomic bomb, and in this scenario they would have time to invent and produce it. They would have nuked the remaining Soviet territory.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

like they did at klalkhin gol?  If you want to see how an entire japanses army would have faird against the Soviets, look up operation august storm

*yawn* alternate histories can "prove" anything, dude. Communist soldiers suck and they can only win in vast hordes, and sometimes not even then.

[cjd]

I saw some very uninformed statements about role of the USSR in the WWII. Please people, get some real, academically sound books, read memoirs of Soviet and German generals, look at statistics before making a fool out yourself by asserting that USSR just "helped" to win WWII.

Just a small example that illustrates who really defeated nazi beasts and the attitude of the opposing forces. Wenck's 12th army and the remnants of the German 9th army (destroyed by Red Army) were senselessly fighting advancing Red Army just to surrender to American forces. German guns continued to fire on advancing Red Army troops and Americans on the other side of Elba river watched and did nothing! Majority of German POWs on that day hoped and believed that Americans are going to join with Germans to drive out invading Soviet Army. Until allied invasion in 1944, more the 90% of Wehrmacht's best troops and best equipment were engaged in the Eastern front as most of the Romanian, Finnish and Hungarian armed forces. Italians had a contingent in USSR that was larger than their Afrika Corp. There was a Spannish "Blue Division", French LVB and later SS Charlemagne division (last defenders of Reichstag), Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian SS divisions, Belgian, Dutch - Nordland and Viking SS Divisions, etc, etc.

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Learn history  - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information Neither is wikipedia. Stick your nose in some real book books that were printed in the late 40's and early 50's and not the revisionist crap that's printed today. Russia fought an 18 century war they were even more backwards than Poland was at the start of hostilities. As I said this morning the only thing that really saved them was the fact that Hitler was fighting a two front war and the Russian winter. Russia suffered great losses during the war but they were in no way the main player. On more then one occasion American troops had to withdraw from hard fought ground so Soviet Troops could make a grand entrance to stroke Stalin's ego. Unless you have some fancy degree that makes you a authority on this issue your informed statements are no better then mine. I have well over 1000 books here at my home by most of the prominent people of the last century and today was the first time I honestly ever heard anyone say that Russia was the main player of WW2.

[t_h_j]

like they did at klalkhin gol?  If you want to see how an entire japanses army would have faird against the Soviets, look up operation august storm

*yawn* alternate histories can "prove" anything, dude. Communist soldiers suck and they can only win in vast hordes, and sometimes not even then.

what alternate histories are you talking about? I take it you have no clue as to what operation august storm was, just as you probably have no idea what operation bagration was. nice post,it shows your ignorance of the war.  Only win in vast hordes?  Where do you get your history from? movies?

[t_h_j]

I saw some very uninformed statements about role of the USSR in the WWII. Please people, get some real, academically sound books, read memoirs of Soviet and German generals, look at statistics before making a fool out yourself by asserting that USSR just "helped" to win WWII.

Just a small example that illustrates who really defeated nazi beasts and the attitude of the opposing forces. Wenck's 12th army and the remnants of the German 9th army (destroyed by Red Army) were senselessly fighting advancing Red Army just to surrender to American forces. German guns continued to fire on advancing Red Army troops and Americans on the other side of Elba river watched and did nothing! Majority of German POWs on that day hoped and believed that Americans are going to join with Germans to drive out invading Soviet Army. Until allied invasion in 1944, more the 90% of Wehrmacht's best troops and best equipment were engaged in the Eastern front as most of the Romanian, Finnish and Hungarian armed forces. Italians had a contingent in USSR that was larger than their Afrika Corp. There was a Spannish "Blue Division", French LVB and later SS Charlemagne division (last defenders of Reichstag), Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian SS divisions, Belgian, Dutch - Nordland and Viking SS Divisions, etc, etc.

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Learn history  - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information Neither is wikipedia. Stick your nose in some real book books that were printed in the late 40's and early 50's and not the revisionist crap that's printed today. Russia fought an 18 century war they were even more backwards than Poland was at the start of hostilities. As I said this morning the only thing that really saved them was the fact that Hitler was fighting a two front war and the Russian winter. Russia suffered great losses during the war but they were in no way the main player. On more then one occasion American troops had to withdraw from hard fought ground so Soviet Troops could make a grand entrance to stroke Stalin's ego. Unless you have some fancy degree that makes you a authority on this issue your informed statements are no better then mine. I have well over 1000 books here at my home by most of the prominent people of the last century and today was the first time I honestly ever heard anyone say that Russia was the main player of WW2.

what "real books" have you read about that subject? 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Operation Bagration was the Soviet offensive on Army Group Center in summer 1944, and no I did not have to Google that, dingus.

[t_h_j]

Operation Bagration was the Soviet offensive on Army Group Center in summer 1944, and no I did not have to Google that, dingus.

i know, you probably just went straight to wikipedia.

[cjd]

I saw some very uninformed statements about role of the USSR in the WWII. Please people, get some real, academically sound books, read memoirs of Soviet and German generals, look at statistics before making a fool out yourself by asserting that USSR just "helped" to win WWII.

Just a small example that illustrates who really defeated nazi beasts and the attitude of the opposing forces. Wenck's 12th army and the remnants of the German 9th army (destroyed by Red Army) were senselessly fighting advancing Red Army just to surrender to American forces. German guns continued to fire on advancing Red Army troops and Americans on the other side of Elba river watched and did nothing! Majority of German POWs on that day hoped and believed that Americans are going to join with Germans to drive out invading Soviet Army. Until allied invasion in 1944, more the 90% of Wehrmacht's best troops and best equipment were engaged in the Eastern front as most of the Romanian, Finnish and Hungarian armed forces. Italians had a contingent in USSR that was larger than their Afrika Corp. There was a Spannish "Blue Division", French LVB and later SS Charlemagne division (last defenders of Reichstag), Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian SS divisions, Belgian, Dutch - Nordland and Viking SS Divisions, etc, etc.

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Learn history  - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information Neither is wikipedia. Stick your nose in some real book books that were printed in the late 40's and early 50's and not the revisionist crap that's printed today. Russia fought an 18 century war they were even more backwards than Poland was at the start of hostilities. As I said this morning the only thing that really saved them was the fact that Hitler was fighting a two front war and the Russian winter. Russia suffered great losses during the war but they were in no way the main player. On more then one occasion American troops had to withdraw from hard fought ground so Soviet Troops could make a grand entrance to stroke Stalin's ego. Unless you have some fancy degree that makes you a authority on this issue your informed statements are no better then mine. I have well over 1000 books here at my home by most of the prominent people of the last century and today was the first time I honestly ever heard anyone say that Russia was the main player of WW2.

what "real books" have you read about that subject? 

I have read books by Churchill ...The Gathering Storm,The Hinge of Faith, Triumph and Tragedy, Their Finest Hour.  Books by Eisenhower. Paton Diary, Books on the FDR presidency Books on the Truman presidency. Books on Henry Lewis Stimson. Yes they are real books.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

i know, you probably just went straight to wikipedia.

I've been studying WWII since you were a gleam in your two fathers' eyes, [censored].

[Spectator]

cjd, according to the books you read, who played the main role in the war?

[t_h_j]

I saw some very uninformed statements about role of the USSR in the WWII. Please people, get some real, academically sound books, read memoirs of Soviet and German generals, look at statistics before making a fool out yourself by asserting that USSR just "helped" to win WWII.

Just a small example that illustrates who really defeated nazi beasts and the attitude of the opposing forces. Wenck's 12th army and the remnants of the German 9th army (destroyed by Red Army) were senselessly fighting advancing Red Army just to surrender to American forces. German guns continued to fire on advancing Red Army troops and Americans on the other side of Elba river watched and did nothing! Majority of German POWs on that day hoped and believed that Americans are going to join with Germans to drive out invading Soviet Army. Until allied invasion in 1944, more the 90% of Wehrmacht's best troops and best equipment were engaged in the Eastern front as most of the Romanian, Finnish and Hungarian armed forces. Italians had a contingent in USSR that was larger than their Afrika Corp. There was a Spannish "Blue Division", French LVB and later SS Charlemagne division (last defenders of Reichstag), Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian SS divisions, Belgian, Dutch - Nordland and Viking SS Divisions, etc, etc.

Yes, America helped to win the war, but majority of this help was through land lease of gunpowder, great Studebaker trucks (2/3 of trucks in Soviet Tank Armies), portable radio sets, air cobras
Leng Lease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Learn history  - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information Neither is wikipedia. Stick your nose in some real book books that were printed in the late 40's and early 50's and not the revisionist crap that's printed today. Russia fought an 18 century war they were even more backwards than Poland was at the start of hostilities. As I said this morning the only thing that really saved them was the fact that Hitler was fighting a two front war and the Russian winter. Russia suffered great losses during the war but they were in no way the main player. On more then one occasion American troops had to withdraw from hard fought ground so Soviet Troops could make a grand entrance to stroke Stalin's ego. Unless you have some fancy degree that makes you a authority on this issue your informed statements are no better then mine. I have well over 1000 books here at my home by most of the prominent people of the last century and today was the first time I honestly ever heard anyone say that Russia was the main player of WW2.

what "real books" have you read about that subject? 

I have read books by Churchill ...The Gathering Storm,The Hinge of Faith, Triumph and Tragedy, Their Finest Hour.  Books by Eisenhower. Paton Diary, Books on the FDR presidency Books on the Truman presidency. Books on Henry Lewis Stimson. Yes they are real books.

what books have you read about the eastern front? do you realize that churchill and eisenhower obviously would minimize soviet participation in the war, especially right when the cold war was starting?

[t_h_j]

i know, you probably just went straight to wikipedia.

I've been studying WWII since you were a gleam in your two fathers' eyes, [censored].

ww2 probably, just not the eastern front judging by your comments "dude".

[cjd]

The person who I take most stock in is Churchill and the next is Eisenhower. From what I gathered over the years is all the main players played important parts in winning the war. One thing that Churchill makes clear if it wasn't for America Hitler would have prevailed against England and most likely against Russia. America would have then been left to face Germany on its own. I would have to say although Russia paid a higher price in human life it was America that made winning the war possible.

[Manch]

It is too speculative to guess the result of Germany vs. Russia without western allies. But I think without the mad man Hitler, Germany could subdue Russia in 1942. BTW, here is another "what if" scenario- Had Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking the USA, what do you think would have happened ?

I think if the Allies didn't open the second front in Western Europe after the Stalingrad battle, the Soviets would have conquered the whole Europe.

But if the West didn't do anything from the beginning of the war, the USSR would have lost. Just think about the German armies of Erwin Rommel that fought in Africa, they could have been used against the Soviets too. Plus all the military might of Japan would strike Russia from the East. In this scenario, the Nazis would certainly captured Moscow and Leningrad and pushed Russian east of the Ural mountains. Plus Germans were rather close to the creation of atomic bomb, and in this scenario they would have time to invent and produce it. They would have nuked the remaining Soviet territory.

Spectator, I expected more from you! Which German Armies in Afrika? One poorely equipped 21st Panzer and 5th Leichte (Light) infantry division. Ok, let all the ignoramuses believe that US won the war, but you should know better.