Israel agrees to freeze settlement construction as gesture to US

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But it's intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to evaluate Begin's life and career based on his unfortunate performance at Camp David alone.

Yes, I agree 100%

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

He was a poor PM.   But out of all them, he was a Jewish hero.  A real idealist and a man amongst boys.

 

How can you be a poor leader and a hero yet at the same time? If I were to call any PM a "Jewish hero", it would be Levi Eshkol.

He was not a poor leader.  He was a poor Prime Minister.   You are putting words in my mouth!   You even quoted me right there so how can you distort a quote that you retyped yourself? 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"I can promise you that if Golda Meir had tried to evacuate the Sinai she would have met with ferocious resistance from average Israelis and the IDF itself "

That was you who said that one, Bones.   Must have been a malfunction with your quoting/formatting.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't think people were saying "Well Begin is really rightwing so even though I don't trust sadat, Begin will protect me I have faith in him."

What is a secular Israeli to do? They have to have faith in something/someone, it's human nature. This is exactly why most Israelis supported the Gush Katif ethnic cleansing.

You just keep repeating your same lines over and over again.  It is as if you are ignoring the fact that I am disputing them.  Can you explain to me logically or with some type of evidence that Israelis back then DISBELIEVED that 'peace with Egypt' was a good idea but SIMULTANEOUSLY talked themselves into it by saying 'begin is rightwing, he must be right about this, even though I THINK ITS BAD' ?   Because that was the point I was making.   No.   People really did believe it would be a good thing.   So many people.   That's the whole point.    Just like with gush katif, no one was saying I see a, b, c, reason why this is evil and complete stupidity, but hey it's ol' sharon boy, so who cares what I think, it must be great?  If it was a lefty, I would oppose, but a righty? I'm game.   That is an illogical position.   

The people were enamored with Sadat and his "gracious" visit to knesset.  There was a hysteria.   A national hysteria.    The left and centrists supported it because they wanted peace.  No more wars against egyptian garbage.   The right some were probably deceived by Sadat... And those who weren't deceived by Sadat, I don't believe they would support Begin on that.

Nobody on the so-called right spoke up against Begin. Literally only a tiny handful of pioneers did--much smaller than the number that tried to resist Gush Katif.

So?   Like I said, most were deceived by sadat and the whole peace charade.   And those people (no matter how small in number they might have been) who were not deceived or caught up in the hoopla, opposed begin, were against him.  "Save Yamit" campaign...  whatever.   They didn't talk themselves into it because 'well even tho I am opposed, begin is a' ok so let's go for it anyway'

And the same ones who oppose Begin on the right

For all practical purposes right-wing opposition to Begin was (and is) nonexistent.

No, you're wrong about this.   People change over time as reality changes.   You fail to understand this.  There may have been very few people against Sinai/Yamit withdrawal back in Begin's day, but MANY MORE of the rightwing today look back at that as a negative thing, than there were at the time who thought it would be.   Like I said, there was a hysteria back then.

For instance, Rabbi Kahane was always against it.  He was somewhat alone then, but his following grew and grew from that point.  More and more people came to agree with him.   Many people today who oppose Oslo see the Sinai withdrawal as the first step in the process that set the whole thing in motion.   It is very unfortunate.   (And do not tell me there are almost no people who oppose Oslo.   There are MANY!  The israeli "street" is not what you imagine it...)   Moshe feiglin is one person who has written on this subject before, but there are more pressing issues.   Bringing up Sinai is like crying over spilled milk.   Let's deal with our problems that are relevant right now like gaza, judea and samaria, etc.   We need to drag Begin's name in the mud or throw bible verses at him as if he's some villain?  That's going to accomplish something?   We've already lost sinai, let's not lose the rest of Judea....

Like I've been trying to explain to you, Begin was an idealist.  You have a narrow simplistic view of these issues.   You cannot see that he is different from today's "bought-and-sold" gangster-politicians like Sharon and olmert and livni.  That is tragically shortsighted.   He was completely different.   He made mistakes.  He regretted them.   He was a good man.  He thought he was doing what was best for his country and his people, not what was "convenient" or what would earn him some prize (ie nobel) or keep him in power at any cost or what would make goyim applaud.   He wasn't into that.   Just ask the british.    He thought he was doing what was best and he messed up as prime minister.   But the rest of his life is to be celebrated for being a hero.   There is no way you will ever change my mind about that because quite frankly, I know too many facts about Begin's life.  Facts drive my opinions.   And knowing what I know, it is impossible to buy your misconceptions and misinformed points.   Once you know more about Begin you'll understand where I'm coming from.   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You just keep repeating your same lines over and over again.  It is as if you are ignoring the fact that I am disputing them.  Can you explain to me logically or with some type of evidence that Israelis back then DISBELIEVED that 'peace with Egypt' was a good idea but SIMULTANEOUSLY talked themselves into it by saying 'begin is rightwing, he must be right about this, even though I THINK ITS BAD' ?   Because that was the point I was making.   No.   People really did believe it would be a good thing.   So many people.   That's the whole point.    Just like with gush katif, no one was saying I see a, b, c, reason why this is evil and complete stupidity, but hey it's ol' sharon boy, so who cares what I think, it must be great?  If it was a lefty, I would oppose, but a righty? I'm game.   That is an illogical position.

This is a strawmanning of my position. I didn't ever simplify it that much. I believe I said (a) Begin and Sharon had much greater reputations than Golda Meir or Ehud Barak and were respected on the Israeli "street" a lot more (which is undeniable and something you have admitted), (b) that Jews in general dislike killing and war and want peace at any cost most of the time, and (c) that the Israeli right will accept bad decisions from the Israeli "right" (whether or not they actually support them) more than they will from the openly hostile left.

Like I said, most were deceived by sadat and the whole peace charade.   And those people (no matter how small in number they might have been) who were not deceived or caught up in the hoopla, opposed begin, were against him.  "Save Yamit" campaign...  whatever.   They didn't talk themselves into it because 'well even tho I am opposed, begin is a' ok so let's go for it anyway'

This is partially true, but one would expect a patriotic, right-wing, nationalist Irgun leader to tell the people the truth about taqqiyah (which he surely knew, for his first few months as PM Begin was actually quite awesome) instead of caving to the peanut-raising dog rapist and selling his people down the river because he didn't know where to turn when the world is hating him. And once again, you are oversimplifying my statement... the most simple means I have of stating my position is "gee whiz these are tough choices and tough times, we don't want any more war, I never would have thought of this but Begin has the experience and battlefield smarts to make sound choices".

No, you're wrong about this.   People change over time as reality changes.   You fail to understand this.  There may have been very few people against Sinai/Yamit withdrawal back in Begin's day, but MANY MORE of the rightwing today look back at that as a negative thing, than there were at the time who thought it would be.   Like I said, there was a hysteria back then.

I don't think I ever denied that some things have improved on the ground. Whereas most on the Israeli left/right supported the banning of HaRav (zt"l) when it happened and considered him a religious fanatic, nowadays a majority of Israelis believe that the Kahanist voice should at least be heard. Whereas most Israelis supported the GK ethnic cleansing four years ago this summer, nowadays at least half have real doubts about it--left, right, and center. Still, the Sinai retreat has not yet moved into general public acceptance yet by any means. The vast majority of Israelis support it or do not think of it, including the "right". Maybe KAHANISTS are openly criticizing the Yamit ethnic cleansing, but the "regular" Israeli right (National Union Party, Moshe Feiglin, most Arutz Sheva contributors) haven't spoken about it yet. If the Kahanist MK would speak out about it (I must confess to forgetting his name) publicly, that would go a long way to forcing a public discourse on it.

For instance, Rabbi Kahane was always against it.  He was somewhat alone then, but his following grew and grew from that point.

Yes, and he was blacklisted and then murdered. He is sadly bigger now than he ever was in his lifetime.

More and more people came to agree with him.   Many people today who oppose Oslo see the Sinai withdrawal as the first step in the process that set the whole thing in motion.   It is very unfortunate.

Maybe more people are starting to get there. A lot of Israelis, thank G-d, understand that Oslo was foolish today. But we aren't there yet in terms of them all tying together that all "land=peace" from the inception is fundamentally stupid. Too many still go along with the gov't.

(And do not tell me there are almost no people who oppose Oslo.   There are MANY!

Why no, I was not going to say that at all, see above. Now, if LOTS of Israelis would be outraged about Sharon/Olmert letting the killers of Shalhevet Pass and Ehud Goldwasser walk scot-free and about the Peace House pogrom/rape.

The israeli "street" is not what you imagine it...)   Moshe feiglin is one person who has written on this subject before, but there are more pressing issues.  Bringing up Sinai is like crying over spilled milk.   Let's deal with our problems that are relevant right now like gaza, judea and samaria, etc.

Hello, Israel surrendered 75% of its territory to Amalek in one afternoon. The Israeli people better wake up and see how insane that was.

We need to drag Begin's name in the mud or throw bible verses at him as if he's some villain?  That's going to accomplish something?   We've already lost sinai, let's not lose the rest of Judea....

Judaism emphasizes actions, not thoughts or motives. It doesn't matter whether or not he was an evil scheming kapo like Olmert or a very weak, cowardly leader who could not handle a browbeating (which he was). He did great things in his youth but what he did as PM nearly canceled that out. Begin is like Reagan--more right-wing than most, but was still responsible for all kinds of absolutely horrible policies.

Like I've been trying to explain to you, Begin was an idealist.  You have a narrow simplistic view of these issues.   You cannot see that he is different from today's "bought-and-sold" gangster-politicians like Sharon and olmert and livni.

I never said anything of the sort, not even remotely. I said that because he was secular and feared Carter more than G-d (Chaim's words--not mine!), he chickened out, sold out, and fell apart.

That is tragically shortsighted.   He was completely different.   He made mistakes.  He regretted them.

Like I said before, I am not aware of any public repentance of his.

He was a good man.  He thought he was doing what was best for his country and his people, not what was "convenient" or what would earn him some prize (ie nobel) or keep him in power at any cost or what would make goyim applaud.

It doesn't really matter what he thought, results are results. He truly feared Carter and the rest of the world. Maybe he wasn't deliberately sucking up the way Lewinsky is right now to Obama, but he definitely feared the United States, panicked (like the people), and didn't know what to do. Just because he wasn't pure evil doesn't mean that he was innocent, or even good. He caved in and fell apart.

He wasn't into that.   Just ask the british.

We are talking about his later life when he was facing down the entire world, not his youth when (despite greatly heroic deeds and actions) when he wasn't. He may have faced more physical pressure when he was a freedom fighter, but he came under more psychological pressure as PM of Israel than almost every other world leader in history.

He thought he was doing what was best and he messed up as prime minister.   But the rest of his life is to be celebrated for being a hero.

He was a hero in his youth. He was not in his later years. That's all I really have to say.

There is no way you will ever change my mind about that because quite frankly, I know too many facts about Begin's life.  Facts drive my opinions.   And knowing what I know, it is impossible to buy your misconceptions and misinformed points.   Once you know more about Begin you'll understand where I'm coming from.   

We haven't really disagreed on any facts, or anything about Begin's mindset. We both agree he wasn't a deliberate self-hater or traitor. We both agree that the Israeli people were and are desperate for peace. I just have higher standards than you do for hero.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Hindsight is always 20-20.

It's easy to look back on historical events and see that mistakes were made.

It's easy to denounce leaders for their shortcomings, and easy to lose sight of the good that they did. It is natural to dwell on the mistakes they made and say 'what if ?'.

It's not so easy to understand what went on in that leader's mind. It's not so easy to know what else could have been done and what would have occurred if different decisions and actions were taken.

Bones, if I'm not mistaken, you're 24 years old. You have the luxury of dispassionately analyzing Begin's performance and rightfully condemning Begin's poor decisions and shortcomings with the benefit of historical hindsight. Your obvious love for Israel motivates you to denounce his mistakes. But remember, you didn't live through those times and no one can know what it was like to be in Begin's shoes at the time those monumental decisions were made.

To this day there are conflicting opinions about the Camp David accords that Begin agreed to. Here at JTF, we understand that any 'peace' talks will ultimately prove to be fruitless and counterproductive. Here we understand that not only is there no one to talk to, but there's nothing to talk about. But our grasp on reality is unique. This is not the prevailing sentiment of the world now, and it wasn't the prevailing sentiment back in Begin's day.

Yes, it would have been wonderful if Begin had not compromised at all. In a perfect world this would have been the case. But the world isn't perfect and I believe Begin did what he thought was best for Israel at the time. This is not a justification or any sort of endorsement for his lamentable actions. This is only an explanation (albeit one you might not readily accept) to help understand Begin's actions.

I don't think Begin was duped by Sadat or Carter. I think he knew what and whom he was dealing with. I think he did what he thought was best, in a very difficult situation. In hindsight, I think we all agree he made a very bad mistake.

I remember Rav Kahane being asked what he thought about Sadat and Begin. The Rav pretty much summed it up when he said "Sadat made Begin look like an Arab". What an insult and condemnation, as only the Rav could provide in his own inimitable style.

That being said, in my opinion, although Begin's poor performance and numerous mistakes as PM undoubtably tarnish his legacy, his remarkable early history still ensures his place as a Jewish hero and one of Israel's greatest figures.

Of course, you are entitled to a different opinion, and I can understand why anyone so dedicated to Israel's well being wouldn't consider Begin a hero in the context of his performance as PM.