Author Topic: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy  (Read 6681 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« on: September 07, 2009, 04:42:22 PM »
I know we had an earlier thread where I was in the minority in not favoring the indiscriminate murder of Arabs such as in the cases of Baruch Goldstein and Ami Popper.  I considered it a good and spirited discussion.  However, now I would like to discuss cases where I feel we need much more force in defense of ourselves and our nation.

If we know of a training camp where suicide bombers are being trained it should be attacked with air power.  Now just to be clear we know they have kids as young as 5 training in such places.  I don't mean to be callous but since they are heading to martyrdom, we can get them their wish (or their parents' wish) early.  In fact I would favor targeted assassinations of anyone who sends their children to such places.  If it discourages others from doing so and keeps these savages from breeding more martyrs so much the better.

If we know of a factory where Kassams or suicide belts are being manufactured they shoudl be hit by the air force and not in the middle of the night when nobody is there.  Hit them during peak activity.  If the word gets out that these are very dangerous places to work, so much the better.

Parades for Hamas, suicide bombers, etc. should be viewed as target rich environments.  Maybe not bombing with killing entire crowds (although I would not rule that out), but certainly snipers where available to take out the leaders of such groups.

No brainer, if terrorists hide behind civilians they do not get a free pass as a result.  Again I do not favor killing innocent civilians and would to some degree bend over backwards to avoid killing them, but if they allow terrorists to hide among them they need to know they are taking on risk and that it is their responsibility to avoid the risk, not ours to risk our children's lives so they can do so.

Stop persecuting Jews for self defense.  A major apology for Daniel Pinner who might have shot an Arab who was coming after him with aggression.  A medal for Avri Ran who lives without a fence or gate among hostile Arabs but beats the snot out of those who endanger him.  That is the model of how Jews should live in Eretz Yisrael, make their enemies afraid, not hide behind gates and guards.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2009, 04:47:39 PM »
I know we had an earlier thread where I was in the minority in not favoring the indiscriminate murder of Arabs such as in the cases of Baruch Goldstein and Ami Popper.
Those were not "indiscriminate murders", and besides, how can you "murder" Amalek? I want you to read Deuteronomy 7:2 to me.

Quote
Now just to be clear we know they have kids as young as 5 training in such places.  I don't mean to be callous but since they are heading to martyrdom, we can get them their wish (or their parents' wish) early.
We need to be more callous with this subhuman sewage. These creatures dance around in the street and throw out candy when Jews are murdered when they are as little as two years old. 

Quote
and not in the middle of the night when nobody is there.  Hit them during peak activity.  If the word gets out that these are very dangerous places to work, so much the better.
The Israeli public right now would not tolerate the killing of large numbers of Arab children, even if they are not intentionally targeted.

Quote
Maybe not bombing with killing entire crowds (although I would not rule that out),
Ahem, I refer you back to Deut 7:2.

Quote
Again I do not favor killing innocent civilians and would to some degree bend over backwards to avoid killing them
Excuse me!?!?! How can any member of Muslim Nazi Amalek be "innocent"? That is a self-hating statement.

Quote
Stop persecuting Jews for self defense.  A major apology for Daniel Pinner who might have shot an Arab who was coming after him with aggression.  A medal for Avri Ran who lives without a fence or gate among hostile Arabs but beats the snot out of those who endanger him.  That is the model of how Jews should live in Eretz Yisrael, make their enemies afraid, not hide behind gates and guards.
Israel's secular majority believes in "the rule of law" and applying the law "impartially".

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2009, 06:48:33 PM »
Excuse me!?!?! How can any member of Muslim Nazi Amalek be "innocent"? That is a self-hating statement.<<

This is where guys like you totally lose me.  Do you not think there are Arabs who don't care about politics, who would rather not just live quietly?  I know for a fact that such Arabs exist because I have a friend of that sort.  I don't know if this represents 5, 10 or 30% of the Arab world.  It is impossible to know since as long as the savages control that world people are afraid to speak out.  I don't have a problem telling them that they have to make a choice and that standing with the savages might get them killed by us but we need to do a better job of projecting strength so they are more afraid of us than they are of the savages.

So you favor total indiscriminate killing of Arabs, men women, and children?  Would you kill a newborn baby in the hospital?  Would you build death camps for them?  Have you really thought this through?

We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 06:56:13 PM »
This is where guys like you totally lose me.  Do you not think there are Arabs who don't care about politics, who would rather not just live quietly?
Yes, maybe a couple dozen or hundred at most Druze and (real) Christian Arabs, which Chaim and most of us would have no problem with letting stay in Israel if they would be law-abiding.

Quote
I know for a fact that such Arabs exist because I have a friend of that sort.
Arabs are trained in the fine art of taqqiyah from childhood.

Quote
I don't know if this represents 5, 10 or 30% of the Arab world.
Try maybe 1/1000th of 1%.

Quote
It is impossible to know since as long as the savages control that world people are afraid to speak out.
Why are Arabs ferocious anti-Semites even when they live in free places like America and Europe? 

Quote
I don't have a problem telling them that they have to make a choice and that standing with the savages might get them killed by us but we need to do a better job of projecting strength so they are more afraid of us than they are of the savages.
The only language that savages understand is more brutality than they themselves can dish out.

Quote
So you favor total indiscriminate killing of Arabs, men women, and children?  Would you kill a newborn baby in the hospital?  Would you build death camps for them?  Have you really thought this through?
Did you read that Bible verse that I gave you? I know that you are secular as indicated by your username, but do you really think that G-d would ever order innocent people killed? If G-d gave an order to wipe out Amalek wholesale, don't you think He knew that every last one of them had chosen evil or would choose evil when at the age of accountability? Do you think he would order people who He knew would repent later on killed?

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 07:40:30 PM »
 :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: :soldier: :israel: :israel: :israel: :israel: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa+israel: :usa+israel: :usa+israel: :usa+israel: :fist: :fist: :fist: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks: :fireworks:

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 08:24:09 PM »
Did you read that Bible verse that I gave you? I know that you are secular as indicated by your username, but do you really think that G-d would ever order innocent people killed? If G-d gave an order to wipe out Amalek wholesale, don't you think He knew that every last one of them had chosen evil or would choose evil when at the age of accountability? Do you think he would order people who He knew would repent later on killed?<<

As someone who is a believer, although secular, this is exactly the type of thought that scares me about some religious people.  Do you know that the Arabs are another case of Amelekites?  Are you sure about that?  I don't always oppose killing innocent people.  As I said I would favor hitting targets where terrorists are hiding behind civilians.  I favor the atomic bombs having been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as the firebombing of Dresden.  These were tactics needed to defeat a horribly brutal enenmy and not decisions taken lightly.  In fact it is estimated that the atomic bomb saved the lives of a million American soldiers and millions of Japanese who would have been killed in an invasion of the mainland.  I would not rule out Israel using nuclear weapons if the need arose, as supposedly it was contemplated during the Yom Kippur War.  However, this are very thoughtful reluctant decisions to take very brutal steps by civilized people with the understanding that it is an awesome responsibility to cause that level of suffering on innocents.

Again I ask you, would you go into a hospital ward and kill newborn Arab children?  Would you do it personally or just say that it is a good idea while sitting behind the safety of a computer keyboard?  Would you work as a guard at a death camp?  I would not do those things.  On the other hand I would gladly go to Israel to pull the switch at an execution of the sniper who murdered Shellhevet Pass or the moron who gleefully showed his bloody hands after taking part in the murder of the two soldiers, or the woman who lured the teenager to be murdered. 
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Yochai

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 09:08:47 PM »
As I have stated before, it is very problematic to state that the Fakestinians are Amalek, mainly for the fact that there is no such thing as a Fakestinian. 

If they are Amalek, then all Arabs are Amalek, and this too is quite problematic, because Arabs for the most part do not live in Eretz Yisrael, and thus do not warrant to be killed.

Furthermore, an issue like this is something for the Rabbis to decide, and I do not agree with people so simply stating "Arabs are Amalek", unless they are Torah Scholars themselves.

If Arabs are Amalek, this also means they could never live as Gerei Toshav, regardless of whether they are righteous Christians or not.  The fact that it was stated that there are righteous Christian Arabs pretty much would exclude them from being Amalek, as there could be no such Amalekites.

I have been told by more than one Rabbi that the modern Palestinians are more congruent to the Seven nations.  That is, that we are to drive them out of our land, but not in the same manner that Amalekites are to be dealt in.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 09:17:28 PM »
As someone who is a believer, although secular, this is exactly the type of thought that scares me about some religious people.
What I said comes directly from the Bible. G-d's word is perfect, inerrant, and permanent.

Quote
Do you know that the Arabs are another case of Amelekites?  Are you sure about that?  I don't always oppose killing innocent people.
The Arabs are obviously Amalek. Any nation that devotes itself fully to the annihilation of Jewry is Amalek in whatever generation they are in. I think that the Arabs are even worse than the German and Japanese Nazis. How can I say that? You didn't see the Germans and Japanese blowing themselves up just to kill Jews. You didn't see Germans sending their children into the streets to use as human bombs against Jewish children.

Quote
As I said I would favor hitting targets where terrorists are hiding behind civilians.  I favor the atomic bombs having been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as the firebombing of Dresden.  These were tactics needed to defeat a horribly brutal enenmy and not decisions taken lightly.
I think the Arab Muslim Nazis are at least as brutal as the German and Japanese Nazis. They deserve everything that they faced and then some.

Quote
In fact it is estimated that the atomic bomb saved the lives of a million American soldiers and millions of Japanese who would have been killed in an invasion of the mainland.
Agreed.

Quote
I would not rule out Israel using nuclear weapons if the need arose, as supposedly it was contemplated during the Yom Kippur War.
I wouldn't do that unless absolutely necessary because what the fallout would do to Jews.

Quote
However, this are very thoughtful reluctant decisions to take very brutal steps by civilized people with the understanding that it is an awesome responsibility to cause that level of suffering on innocents.
Here is the heart of the disconnect that we have, Secular. You are secular; I am religious. I perceive that the facade that our culture has about "human rights" is a pitiful effort that we make to castrate ourselves. There cannot be "human rights" for people who according to Holy Scriptures are sub-human. You can't "murder" a murderer. I derive my whole sense and understanding of right vs. wrong from the Holy Bible. I understand that a literal interpretation of the Word of G-d is not politically correct, but so be it. The great Ravs have said that anyone who is merciful to the cruel, will be cruel to the merciful. I do not think that you would ever willfully be that way but I do want you to see what the implication of this G-dless worldview has been in Israel. Amir Popper was sentenced to life without parole and Dr. Baruch Goldstein (zt"l) would almost certainly have been executed had he lived, and Chaim Ben Pesach is forbidden from setting foot in Israel--but Samir Kuntar and hundreds of other Arab mass murderers have been pardoned and Arik Sharon (yimach schmo) agreed to not capture the killers of Shalhevet Pass and Tali Fahuel (zt"l) as one of the "conditions" of "ending" the Second Intifada.

Quote
Again I ask you, would you go into a hospital ward and kill newborn Arab children?  Would you do it personally or just say that it is a good idea while sitting behind the safety of a computer keyboard?
I don't appreciate you trying to get me to say something wrong. I stated what the Holy Bible teaches on Amalek and that is it. It is not my job to wipe out Amalek. I am a Gentile living in the United States with no connection or authority in Israel whatsoever. It is the job of the leaders of Israel whom G-d has entrusted with the task of reigning the Holy Land. My role in this, at all, is to try to convince average Jews why their Hellenized brainwashing from the Bolshevik government is so very wrong and why it is resulting in national suicide before their eyes. What they decide to do with that, is their decision between them and G-d.

Quote
Would you work as a guard at a death camp?  I would not do those things.
I don't appreciate you saying that, and that never, ever happened anyway. Joshua and the heroic Torah Jews of his generation didn't build death camps for the Nazi Canaanites (as much as those proto-Muslim Nazis deserved it).

Quote
On the other hand I would gladly go to Israel to pull the switch at an execution of the sniper who murdered Shellhevet Pass or the moron who gleefully showed his bloody hands after taking part in the murder of the two soldiers, or the woman who lured the teenager to be murdered. 
Well, think about it. You're already to the right of many typical Israelis just by saying that. The Nazi establishment that rules the Holy Land would call you a fascist, extremist, or racist terrorist for saying just that.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 09:22:15 PM »
If they are Amalek, then all Arabs are Amalek, and this too is quite problematic, because Arabs for the most part do not live in Eretz Yisrael, and thus do not warrant to be killed.
The Vilna Gaon stated that any total enemy of the Jewish people, in any generation, is Amalek for that generation. He meant the so-called "Christian" Europeans when he spoke of Amalek in his time, and the Muslims of today are even more totally evil than they were. There isn't much more of a total enemy of the Jewish people than the Arabs. Your objections here are irrelevant, because (a) those Arabs living in Israel certainly are Amalek, and (b) the vast majority of Eretz Israel is under Arab control right now in the hands of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, etc.

Quote
Furthermore, an issue like this is something for the Rabbis to decide, and I do not agree with people so simply stating "Arabs are Amalek", unless they are Torah Scholars themselves.
The Vilna Gaon is pretty much the biggest Torah Scholar you get.

Quote
If Arabs are Amalek, this also means they could never live as Gerei Toshav, regardless of whether they are righteous Christians or not.  The fact that it was stated that there are righteous Christian Arabs pretty much would exclude them from being Amalek, as there could be no such Amalekites.
G-d gives every human being free will. G-d was willing to consider the existence of righteous people in Sodom, after all (even though there weren't any). If a tiny handful of Amalek chooses not to be Amalek, why shouldn't they be acknowledged?

Quote
I have been told by more than one Rabbi that the modern Palestinians are more congruent to the Seven nations.  That is, that we are to drive them out of our land, but not in the same manner that Amalekites are to be dealt in.
You should ask Chaim about this.

Offline Yochai

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 09:36:20 PM »
It is very interesting that you cite the Gra's opinion on this, which is known to be the most extreme.  Not that this is an issue for me, as I am Jewish, but the Gra stated that Amalek is composed of EVERY Christian and Ishmaelite, and this is not an opinion I agree with, as it would mean that Amalek consists of billions of people, and also denies the existence of righteous Christians.

Rav Kahane did not state that all the Arabs in EY were Amalek, and this is the view I take.

Nonethless, whether or not they are Amalek, they are still a people who are on our land and who we are at war with.  The Rav did not mince words on this issue, and stated that they are to be as all enemies are treated in a Milchemet Mitzvah.

Also, you stated: "If a tiny handful of Amalek chooses not to be Amalek, why shouldn't they be acknowledged?".  This goes against the idea of Amalek, which is something that one cannot choose to be or not be.  This is why we are ordered to kill even the infants of the Amalekites, becuase they are inherently evil, and there could be no such thing as righteous Amalek.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 09:43:08 PM by Yochai »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 09:53:22 PM »
I'm not the great Torah Scholar is, Chaim is. I know that the Vilna Gaon is a pretty high and supreme Torah authority though. He has said many times that Arabs are Amalek. You should ask him directly on Ask JTF.

Offline Yochai

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 10:10:19 PM »
I'm not the great Torah Scholar is, Chaim is. I know that the Vilna Gaon is a pretty high and supreme Torah authority though. He has said many times that Arabs are Amalek. You should ask him directly on Ask JTF.

Well, this is the beauty of Judaism.  As they say, two Jews, three opinions.

One does not have to follow anything that any Rabbi said, as long as he is living a Jewish lifestyle.  Differences of philosophy do not in any way mean anybody is wrong or right, as they are all just difference of approaches(Within the law of the Torah.  Granted any non-orthodox opinion means squat)

Chaim may believe that, and he is eons ahead of me in terms of his knowledge of Torah, but I do not hold this opnion.  Of course, my hashkafa is always subject to change, as returning to Teshuva is quite overwhelming, and as one learns more and more, their hashkafa is challenged and moulded.

Regardless, this debate is highly semantical, as it seems to me that both of us agree on the practical action that must be taken, and that our disagreement mainly lies in the framing of the religious aspect of this practical action. 
We both agree that these people must go, and that should a war break out (or already has been going on for 60 years, depending on who you talk to), we shall show them no mercy.

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 10:38:57 PM »
We both agree that these people must go, and that should a war break out (or already has been going on for 60 years, depending on who you talk to), we shall show them no mercy. <<

I thought I was taking a hard line until I heard from Bonesfan.  I guess what gives me a secular outlook, is that while I believe in G-d, I don't claim to know what G-d is thinking.  Before I start killing babies I would have to have it demonstrated to me that it is absolutely necessary in ways beyond someone saying that the Arabs deserve the same treatment as the Amalekites based on some Rabbi's reading of the Torah.  I honestly believe with the steps I have suggested there would be no need to engage in indiscriminate killing of civilians.  For instance if we bombed a missile factory during work hours and 30 factory workers died recruiting people to work in those factories would become more difficult for the savages.  If people start to fear the IDF more than they do the Hamas or Fatah it would change things. 

In fact like the Japanese who were saved by the atomic bombing many Arabs would be saved by Israel taking a truly hard line.  In fact liberals should be held accountable for the deaths of civilians in Operation Cast Lead.  Had they not given Gaza to the Arabs, then Hamas would never have come to power, and there would be no Kassams being fired at the Negev.  Had there been a brutal response to the first Kassams there might have been no more fired and fewer Jews and Arabs would have been killed in later fighting.
 
 
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 11:02:10 PM »
I don't appreciate you trying to get me to say something wrong.<<

I am not trying to trap you into saying something, I am trying to get you to think about what you are saying and hopefully realize that it is a huge step involving heinous acts that we as a people will later regret.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 11:23:56 PM »
Amir Popper was sentenced to life without parole and Dr. Baruch Goldstein (zt"l) would almost certainly have been executed had he lived, and Chaim Ben Pesach is forbidden from setting foot in Israel--but Samir Kuntar and hundreds of other Arab mass murderers have been pardoned and Arik Sharon (yimach schmo) agreed to not capture the killers of Shalhevet Pass and Tali Fahuel (zt"l) as one of the "conditions" of "ending" the Second Intifada.<<

Let me try to take these one at a time.  Popper was sentenced to life but his sentence was reduced (for reasons I don't know of) and a Canadian Kahanist woman married him and he had children with her.  He had previously been forcibly discharged by the Army.  When he was caught for murdering the Arabs he initially claimed he was upset over being dumped by his girlfriend and later said the murders were revenge for having been raped by an Arab in his early teens.  He was given a furlough from prison and caused a car accident (he crossed over a divider line and was driving with a license that expired 8 years prior) that killed his wife and one of his children.  The guy has nut and loser written all over him and in my opinion should not be viewed by anyone as a hero.

Goldstein would likely not have been executed if he survived.  I have sympathy for Goldstein, he is my age, an ex Brooklyn JDLer like myself (oddly I had a buddy in the JDL named Goldstein and when this first happened my first thought was that my friend was the shooter).  Goldstein would probably have gotten the same sentence as Yigal Amir or possibly claimed diminished capacity which I think is probably what he was.  I think he was a good guy who snapped over the killings of his friends.  His actions were understandable but not excuseable.

I certainly agree that Chaim should be allowed into Israel and that Kahanists should not be banned.  If we allow Arab parties and Peace Now we cannot fairly ban Kahanists.  That Kuntar is still alive let alone free is just an abomination.

I was not aware that the murderer of Shellhevet Pass was not captured.  I was under the impression that both the sniper as well as the handler were captured.  If what you say is accurate that is beyond awful.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2009, 12:40:13 AM »
I thought I was taking a hard line until I heard from Bonesfan.  I guess what gives me a secular outlook, is that while I believe in G-d, I don't claim to know what G-d is thinking.  Before I start killing babies I would have to have it demonstrated to me that it is absolutely necessary in ways beyond someone saying that the Arabs deserve the same treatment as the Amalekites based on some Rabbi's reading of the Torah.  I honestly believe with the steps I have suggested there would be no need to engage in indiscriminate killing of civilians.  For instance if we bombed a missile factory during work hours and 30 factory workers died recruiting people to work in those factories would become more difficult for the savages.  If people start to fear the IDF more than they do the Hamas or Fatah it would change things. 

In fact like the Japanese who were saved by the atomic bombing many Arabs would be saved by Israel taking a truly hard line.  In fact liberals should be held accountable for the deaths of civilians in Operation Cast Lead.  Had they not given Gaza to the Arabs, then Hamas would never have come to power, and there would be no Kassams being fired at the Negev.  Had there been a brutal response to the first Kassams there might have been no more fired and fewer Jews and Arabs would have been killed in later fighting.

There is a difference between the Tojo Japanese and the Arabs, and that is that the latter are even more thoroughly cruel and satanic. The Tojo Japanese were very, very bad, but at least a few of them didn't necessarily go along with the fanaticism of the regime. They lived under a barbaric fascist military dictatorship. By contrast the Arabs DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Hamas. I do not buy it that Hamas is really worse than Fatah, but they are more open about commiting a second Holocaust, and the average Arabs really picked up on that.

I still do not believe there can be any such thing as an "innocent civilian" when it comes to Amalek. Western notions of "human rights" just aren't found anywhere in Scripture and I do believe that someone called "innocent" have better earned that title. By any rational measure of comparison of the Arabs to their ancestors the Hittites or Amorites the Arabs are just as bad in every facet of measurement if not worse. The Amorites burned their children alive as sacrifices to Molech and the Arabs send their children out with dynamite belts into Israeli soldiers as a sacrifice to their demon idol Allah. G-d warned that if Israel did not utterly destroy Amalek that weak Israelites would be tempted by their idolatrous ways and look, what do we have today? Self-hating Israeli youth getting involved in Arab drugs, gangs, and prostitution. If there are any Arabs that are not totally evil they should have the sense to leave now or turn themselves into the IDF and plead for mercy. You and I disagree on the total number of them.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2009, 12:47:14 AM »
I am not trying to trap you into saying something, I am trying to get you to think about what you are saying and hopefully realize that it is a huge step involving heinous acts that we as a people will later regret.
The fact that you think Jews will "regret" obeying G-d's commandments regarding the Nazi idolater occupants of their own land shows how horribly perverse and self-hating this generation of secularized Jews has become. If Jews really, truly feel more sorry for satanic Nazi demons than their own heroes who stood up to the Nazi demons (like Popper and Goldstein) that is an abomination worse than any gay orgy in the brothels of Tel Aviv. (By the way, I don't think you are correct about either Goldstein or Popper. Goldstein had very good intelligence that Fatah was planning an ambush at the Cave of the Patriarchs and Popper, if I understand correctly, was mentally scarred by being raped by Arabs as a child. It doesn't matter though, the Bible is clear what to do about Amalek.*)

*My church actually had a sermon about Amalek this summer. G-d made a distinction between garden-variety occupants of the Holy Land and surrounding areas, such as the Moabites (who were idolatrous and wicked, but had not actually raised their hand against the Jews) who were to be expelled from the land and permitted to live, and all-out supremely evil Amalek nations such as the Amorites, who had launched Nazi jihads against the Israelites as they crossed in from Egypt. The latter were to be irrevocably and completely wiped out without exception. Please tell me what is different between modern Arabs and the Amorites.

Offline GoIsraelGo!

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2825
  • Wake up America, Obama is the enemy!
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2009, 01:06:51 AM »
Excuse me!?!?! How can any member of Muslim Nazi Amalek be "innocent"? That is a self-hating statement.<<

This is where guys like you totally lose me.  Do you not think there are Arabs who don't care about politics, who would rather not just live quietly?  I know for a fact that such Arabs exist because I have a friend of that sort.  I don't know if this represents 5, 10 or 30% of the Arab world.  It is impossible to know since as long as the savages control that world people are afraid to speak out.  I don't have a problem telling them that they have to make a choice and that standing with the savages might get them killed by us but we need to do a better job of projecting strength so they are more afraid of us than they are of the savages.

So you favor total indiscriminate killing of Arabs, men women, and children?  Would you kill a newborn baby in the hospital?  Would you build death camps for them?  Have you really thought this through?


Wait a minute!        " would you build death camps for them? "
Jews defending themselves against nazi muslims is an absolute must.  How can you ask such a question as that? It is the nazi muslims who will build death camps for the Jews. Remember this: The muslims adore hitler and sell copies of his book mein kamp throughout the Middle East.

I can't speak for Bonesfan, but I can speak for myself and yes, I would not shed one tear for any muslim that is killed in the act of war, and that includes their newborns being killed. You think muslims give a chit about Newborn Jews? Muslims murder them in Pizza parlors while they are still in their Mothers wombs.

Keep in mind we did not start this war, the muslims did.


Offline GoIsraelGo!

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2825
  • Wake up America, Obama is the enemy!
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2009, 01:27:32 AM »
Secular, do you understand what islam is and it's agenda?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2009, 01:35:43 AM »
Wait a minute!        " would you build death camps for them? "
Jews defending themselves against nazi muslims is an absolute must.  How can you ask such a question as that? It is the nazi muslims who will build death camps for the Jews. Remember this: The muslims adore hitler and sell copies of his book mein kamp throughout the Middle East.

I can't speak for Bonesfan, but I can speak for myself and yes, I would not shed one tear for any muslim that is killed in the act of war, and that includes their newborns being killed. You think muslims give a chit about Newborn Jews? Muslims murder them in Pizza parlors while they are still in their Mothers wombs.

Keep in mind we did not start this war, the muslims did.
As usual, Dox is right on. Secularbeliever is completely typical of the mainstream Israeli mindset today. Yes, he wants the Israeli government to crush the terrorists once and for all, and kill their leaders (neither of which either Kadima or Likud is willing to do), but he doesn't understand the Biblical concept of Amalek because he is secular and has been raised with left-wing Western conceptions of civil rights. G-d knows human nature better than current philosophical trends and if He says that Israel better completely eliminate Amalek or else, He knows what He is talking about. You see where 60 years of Israel coddling the Arabs has gotten them to date. Secularbeliever has good intentions, but his answer, which is based upon the worldview he has been raised in, is merely an escalated version of the status quo, rather than the true Scriptural answer.

And as for his comment about "newborn Arabs", I can just say that there is a 100% chance that within two years, these so-called innocent Arab babies will be jumping around on their front lawns when al-Jazeera announces that a Qassam or Katyusha rocket has killed a Jew, singing and hollering and giving candy to all their devilspawn friends in the neighborhood. That's not a human child; that's a demon. Anyone who really wants to make an excuse for such satanic behavior should go see a psychologist for some analysis.

Offline Manch

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1869
  • Kahane Tzadak!
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2009, 01:47:26 AM »
The fair ratio is 1 to 1000. A proper ratio would be 1 to 10,000. Let me explain - there are hundred time more of our enemies than us, and in order to have a proper deterrent, they have to experience the pain at least 10 times more than we do.
Hayot Araviot Masrihot

Offline Spectator

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1234
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2009, 01:54:28 AM »
My church actually had a sermon about Amalek this summer. G-d made a distinction between garden-variety occupants of the Holy Land and surrounding areas, such as the Moabites (who were idolatrous and wicked, but had not actually raised their hand against the Jews) who were to be expelled from the land and permitted to live, and all-out supremely evil Amalek nations such as the Amorites, who had launched Nazi jihads against the Israelites as they crossed in from Egypt. The latter were to be irrevocably and completely wiped out without exception. Please tell me what is different between modern Arabs and the Amorites.

Bones, Amorites were not Amalek. They were evil, no doubt, and certainly deserved what they got, but they were not Amalek. Amalekites lived in Negev and Amorites lived in present-day Jordan.

Also,  what proof do you have that Arabs are Amalekites? They are Ismaelites, desendants of Ismael, son of Abraham and brother of Isaac. While it is clear (by their Nazi behavior) that many of them have some Amalekite blood, you cannot apply to them all Amalek law.

This does not mean we must not fight against them. They have waged war against us, and we must act accordingly. You are right that hunting for specific terrorists is not sufficient. But Amalek law is inapplicable to them.

My opinion that Israel should act against Arab agressors as the Allies acted against Nazi Germany.
Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)

Offline GoIsraelGo!

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2825
  • Wake up America, Obama is the enemy!
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2009, 01:54:50 AM »
Bonesfan, I am wondering if Secular truly understands what islam is. It appears from what I read, that he has some reservations about the civilian muslim population, but what I cannot understand is how can he overlook the facts regarding muslims and their daily murderous sprees across the globe and their incessant propanganda against the Jews.

perhaps Secular has some degree of faith toward muslims who claim to be non violent? I know for a fact that muslims are trained from birth to lie to the infidels and their ultimate goal is World dominance. How and why muslims are gaining Global dominance is a question Secular should ask himself.

The evidence is right before his eyes.


                                                              Shalom - Dox


Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2009, 02:08:17 AM »
Since I am somewhat secular myself, let me give you an alternate way to look at this.

I nor anyone else here, believe that Islam is a religion... just like we wouldnt refer to Naziism or Communism as a religion... so please dont try and look at this issue as a theological one.

Islam, Naziism are ideologies that promote intolerance and hate.  The question then becomes is it apropriate to hate an idiology that teaches hate, and the answer should be a resounding yes.

What level of action or violence is appropriate against Islam???  The same level that was appropriate against the Nazis and Naziism.  Not to kill all that have been brainwashed by it, but to do all we can to destroy the institutions and people that spread the hate.  It has to be a process of de-Islamification.  This is a fight of good against evil, not one religion against another.

Offline Spectator

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1234
Re: What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 02:12:04 AM »
Since I am somewhat secular myself, let me give you an alternate way to look at this.

I nor anyone else here, believe that Islam is a religion... just like we wouldnt refer to Naziism or Communism as a religion... so please dont try and look at this issue as a theological one.

Islam, Naziism are ideologies that promote intolerance and hate.  The question then becomes is it apropriate to hate an idiology that teaches hate, and the answer should be a resounding yes.

What level of action or violence is appropriate against Islam???  The same level that was appropriate against the Nazis and Naziism.  Not to kill all that have been brainwashed by it, but to do all we can to destroy the institutions and people that spread the hate.  It has to be a process of de-Islamification.  This is a fight of good against evil, not one religion against another.


I completely agree.
Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)