Jewish by the mothers line but not the fathers? Why?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes I have learned Rashi on the verse.   But there is more than just Rashi.

In any case, I can't see why a person can't go by pashut pshat on that verse.   There isn't reason to be "corrected" or to have to go along with drash instead.   Am I wrong?

[The One and Only Mo]

 

[muman613]

Yes I have learned Rashi on the verse.   But there is more than just Rashi.

In any case, I can't see why a person can't go by pashut pshat on that verse.   There isn't reason to be "corrected" or to have to go along with drash instead.   Am I wrong?

Let us just ask our own Rabbis what is meant by this story concerning Moses and the Egyptian Taskmaster. I will not argue with KWRBT because what he says is true. There is no requirement to believe this interpretation. I think it is good to investigate what the sages said concerning this incident because it reflects on some of Moshes finer character traits.

[Christian Zionist]

Thanks Muman and others.  Very interesting to read.

However the Aish article does not imply that the blasphemer was a Jew because he was born to a Jewish tribe of Dan.

The following sentence in the same article also identifies the blasphemer as an "Egyptian" ...

"Although the Midrash tells us that the Egyptian violated her without her knowledge, and ostensibly against her will, the prefacing remarks concerning her immorality belie a less-than flattering attitude toward her".

Did anyone find explanations about Athalia?  The full story is told in 2 Kings 11.

[muman613]

Thanks Muman and others.  Very interesting to read.

However the Aish article does not imply that the blasphemer was a Jew because he was born to a Jewish tribe of Dan.

The following sentence in the same article also identifies the blasphemer as an "Egyptian" ...

"Although the Midrash tells us that the Egyptian violated her without her knowledge, and ostensibly against her will, the prefacing remarks concerning her immorality belie a less-than flattering attitude toward her".

Did anyone find explanations about Athalia?  The full story is told in 2 Kings 11.

I have been looking at the story and am trying to better understand the issues...

[Christian Zionist]

Bear in mind that the Talmud says that King Solomon never actually worshipped any idols, but since he did not stop his wives from doing so when he could have, Hashem considered it as if it were King Solomon's own sin.)

Muman, I don't know where in Talmud it is stated that King Solomon never actually worshiped any idols.  Since I have not done enough research about Talmud, I am unable to pull up the corresponding verse(s)

The following verses from the Tanach unambiguously prove that King Solomon indeed worshiped idols...

1 Kings 11:4

   As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his G-d, as the heart of David his father had been.

1 Kings 11:5

He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable G-d of the Ammonites.

1 Kings 11:6

   So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

1 Kings 11:7

On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable G-d of Moab, and for Molech the detestable G-d of the Ammonites.

1 Kings 11:33

I (HaShem) will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the G-d of the Moabites, and Molech the G-d of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did.

Even if we assume that Solomon did not directly worship the idols the details about the wife of Solomon and the queen mother of Solomon's successor raises questions!

Also Solomon's wife and the mother of Solomon's successor King Rehoboam was an Ammonite woman called Naamah...  Since Solomon worshiped the detestable goddess of Ammon and built alter for that idol I would assume Naamah played a role in leading Solomon astray!  Solomon gave importance to Naamah, the Ammonite queen which resulted in her son becoming Solomon's successor.  Naamah never converted to Judaism so King Rehoboam was also not Jewish!!!  Again imagine a non-Jewish king succeeding Solomon!!!

It would also mean King David's grandson who ascended to his throne was NOT Jewish?!?!  Unbelievable!

2 Chronicles 12:13  (also in 1 Kings 14:21)

King Rehoboam established himself firmly in Jerusalem and continued as king. He was forty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city the LORD had chosen out of all the tribes of Israel in which to put his Name. His mother's name was Naamah; she was an Ammonite.

Surprisingly Namaah was the only one of Solomon's wives to be mentioned, within the Tanakh, as having borne a child.

[muman613]

Hi CZ,

I don't know what your point is here. It seems you are trying to disprove the Torah...

All one needs to do is study the sages and you learn that there is much background material which is not provided in Tanakh, the midrash and other writings explain the missing pieces.

Lets see what Chabad says about King Solomon:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/463983/jewish/King-Solomon.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/463986/jewish/Solomons-Spiritual-Influence.htm

Solomon's Spiritual Influence

End of Solomon's Reign

In his old age, Solomon fell victim to some sins. He took many wives, and they turned his heart away from G-d. He permitted idol worship and brought upon himself G-d's wrath. However, for the sake of his father David, G-d told him he would he spared sorrow in his lifetime, but that his son would see his kingdom over all Israel torn from him. Only the tribe of Judah would remain loyal to the House of David.

Solomon began to be troubled in his kingdom. He was threatened and perpetually attacked by Hadad, the Edomite prince, who was eager to avenge the disastrous defeat which the Edomite army had sustained in the time of David. At the same time, Solomon was made uneasy by the serious rebellion of Jeroboam, one of his own officers, who had evidently relied on influential support. Jeroboam, the son of Nevat, an outstanding young man of the tribe of Ephraim, had been met by the prophet Ahijah and was promised the kingdom over the ten northern tribes of Israel. The ambitious Jeroboam, encouraged by the prophecy of Ahijah, soon found an occasion to rebel against Solomon. David had left breaches in the wall surrounding Jerusalem so that people coming there would find easy entrance. Solomon now decided to fortify the city by having these openings sealed. Thereupon, Jeroboam came out strongly against the step, maintaining that Solomon did this against David's wishes. Jeroboam used the occasion to plot Solomon's overthrow. Solomon learned of the conspiracy and sought to apprehend Jeroboam. The latter fled to Egypt where he stayed till Solomon's death.

Solomon's Spiritual Influence

Solomon was not only a great king and ruler; he was also a Divinely inspired writer and philosopher. As the disciple of the prophet Nathan, Solomon wrote with prophetic wisdom the books of Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes, all three of which form part of our holy Bible. The knowledge and study of the Torah attained a high level during the lifetime of King Solomon, Solomon's last words with which he concludes his book of Ecclesiastes, "Fear G-d and keep His commandments for this is the whole purpose of man" truly reflect his great wisdom and personality.

King Solomon's reign extended over a period of forty years (2924-2964). After his death his son Rehabeam ascended the throne.

If you read about King Solomons life you realize that he relapsed into idol worship towards the end of his rule...

Also according to Rashi it appears where it says that he built a altar to this idol, he actually built it for his wives...

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15895/showrashi/true

7. Then did Solomon build a high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab on the mountain that is before Jerusalem and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

Then did Solomon build a high place: Our Rabbis said, Since he did not protest against his wives, it is referred to on his name.

on the mountain that is before Jerusalem: The Mount of Olives.

From:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/king_solomon/

So how did King Solomon marry foreign women? The answer is that an exception was made for the future wives of the king and a special court was set up to handle their conversions. Since many of these weddings were arranged for political reasons it is certain that some of the conversion were not entirely sincere nor did all Solomon’s wives completely abandon their idolatrous practices.

As with Moses and David, we again see the incredible level of accountability that these great leaders are held to. For a wife of King Solomon, prophet, wisest of all men, King of Israel, to worship idols is an inexcusable mistake that Solomon is held directly accountable for.

    In his old age, his wives turned away Solomon’s heart after other gods. (1 Kings 11:4-5).

This, of course, does not mean that King Solomon became an idolater, but the Bible uses these harsh words because he did not prevent his wives from carrying on their idolatrous practices. As a king, he is held responsible for the actions of those under his influence.

One of the greatest leaders of the Jewish people, a man on his spiritual level—who wrote the Song of Songs, the Book of Ecclesiastes, and the Book of Proverbs—must be suffering eternal pain in heaven knowing what has been written about him in the Bible.4

Not only is criticism of Solomon harsh, but as with other great Jewish leaders, so are the consequences of his mistakes. The Bible ends Solomon’s story relating that G-d was angry with him and told him:

     “Since you are guilty of this, and you have not kept My covenant and My laws ... I will tear the kingdom away from you ... But I will not do this in your time, for the sake of your father David. Instead, I will tear it away from your son ... I will give your son one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.” (1 Kings 11:9-13)

It is clear from this how much G-d loved King David and how completely He had forgiven him for his faults. It is also clear that hard times are coming for the Jewish people as the kingdom of Israel is about to be torn in half.

Torah is a very difficult topic and our sages have investigated every angle. I doubt that you have found something which they have not foreseen...

I am still looking for a good explanation of Athalia for you...

See also:

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/48937462.html

[Christian Zionist]

Hi CZ,

I don't know what your point is here. It seems you are trying to disprove the Torah...

My point is Naamah, the Ammonite wife of Solomon and the mother of his successor King Rehoboam did not convert to Judaism.  Therefore could we assume that King Rehoboam who was the son of Naamah, the Ammonite was not Jewish king either?!?!   

You said "It seems you are trying to disprove the Torah..." 

Not at all.  God forbid, if I even think about doing that...  I take Torah literally, I believe every word in the Torah was indeed inspired by Ruah HaKodesh.

You also said "Torah is a very difficult topic and our sages have investigated every angle. I doubt that you have found something which they have not foreseen..."

Of course not!!!  But I would be interested to know what the scholarly sages had said about Naamah, the Ammonite wife of Solomon.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes I have learned Rashi on the verse.   But there is more than just Rashi.

In any case, I can't see why a person can't go by pashut pshat on that verse.   There isn't reason to be "corrected" or to have to go along with drash instead.   Am I wrong?

Let us just ask our own Rabbis what is meant by this story concerning Moses and the Egyptian Taskmaster. I will not argue with KWRBT because what he says is true. There is no requirement to believe this interpretation. I think it is good to investigate what the sages said concerning this incident because it reflects on some of Moshes finer character traits.

Good advice.  In truth, I searched using the internet and I was not able to find alternative opinion on this verse.  My skills are of course quite limited.   But if this is so, then it may be that you're right that no one argues on that midrash!    That being said, you rightly drew a distinction between this one case of Moshe, and the many times when David went into battle, which as we know is very different.    Anyway, good discussion.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Bear in mind that the Talmud says that King Solomon never actually worshipped any idols, but since he did not stop his wives from doing so when he could have, Hashem considered it as if it were King Solomon's own sin.)

Muman, I don't know where in Talmud it is stated that King Solomon never actually worshiped any idols.  Since I have not done enough research about Talmud, I am unable to pull up the corresponding verse(s)

The following verses from the Tanach unambiguously prove that King Solomon indeed worshiped idols...

1 Kings 11:4

   As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his G-d, as the heart of David his father had been.

[/quote]

No, this refers to when King Shlomo married a daughter of the Egyptian pharaoh, and she brought with her articles of egyptian idol worship with her to Israel.   By letting this happen, (it is really HER doing and spreading the idol worship, not Shlomo), but by not stopping it, he was straying in his heart.   It appears he was overtaken by her feminine charms.

He also violated another commandment which said not to acquire excessive horses so as not to return the nation to Egypt (egypt was the major place horses were imported from).

[muman613]

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5758/shoftim.html

Lifeline
Shoftim
by Rabbi Yaakov Menken

"And he should not acquire too many wives, that his heart not go astray, and he should not acquire great sums of silver and gold." [17:17]

The Torah tells us that a king may be tempted to acquire a large number of wives -- a harem, as it were. This can arise from base motivations, as we see in our own time. But Shlomo HaMelech, King Solomon, married a large number of wives for a commendable reason. He felt that by creating bonds of marriage with surrounding kingdoms, he would insure peace and prosperity for Israel. But in either case, the Torah tells us that having too many wives will distract the king from his responsibilities to G-d, and this is surely true if any of the wives is herself a bad influence. King Solomon's wives from the surrounding kingdoms came from idolatrous homes.

Our Sages say that Shlomo HaMelech was caught by his own wisdom. He believed that he would be able to avoid the problems described in this verse. He felt that because he knew the underlying reason behind the mitzvah, he could achieve the same goal without following the mitzvah itself. Yet there is no substitute for observing G-d's word. As we see in Kings I 11:5, the Prophet is very critical and implies that Solomon served idols in his later years. In the Talmud, our Sages explain that since the previous verse merely says that his service of G-d was not as complete as his father David's, it cannot be true that he actually served idols. Rather, he is blamed for failing to prevent his wives from doing so.

This is commonly explained as follows: by converting these women and then marrying them, Solomon became responsible for their actions, and his level of responsibility was only magnified by his own piety and closeness to G-d. Thus when his wives returned to their idol-worship, he was blamed by the prophet as if he himself had participated.

Rabbi Shamshon Raphael Hirsch leads us to a still deeper insight. The verse in the Torah, he notes, does not say "that they will not lead his heart astray," but rather "that his heart not go astray." They need not be directly involved in distracting the king from his Divine Service. Rather, the very presence of too many bad influences is itself a distraction.

Perhaps we can connect this explanation with the error of Shlomo HaMelech. King Solomon believed that he could avoid their bad influence. He knew that they would not be able to lead his own heart astray, and therefore thought that he was safe. However, the verse itself explains that their presence alone is a problem -- and this, we see, Shlomo HaMelech could not control. He could not prevent them from serving idols, and thus from _existing_ as a bad influence. Their conscious impact, he could avoid; the sin was in their mere presence, distracting from the Service of G-d.

Today we live in environment where a host of influences work to drag us away from higher thoughts and closeness to G-d. It is not enough to shelter oneself from the conscious influences, to be wary of only their impact upon oneself. Rather, their very presence is a problem, when we are responsible for them. Let us try to keep those bad influences out of our homes, and away from our children. If neighborhoods around schools can be posted as "drug-free zones" (as if this meant drugs were acceptable in other areas), then no matter what influences we find in the streets, let us at least keep them away from our homes and our own areas of responsibility!

[Christian Zionist]

Bear in mind that the Talmud says that King Solomon never actually worshipped any idols, but since he did not stop his wives from doing so when he could have, Hashem considered it as if it were King Solomon's own sin.)

Muman, I don't know where in Talmud it is stated that King Solomon never actually worshiped any idols.  Since I have not done enough research about Talmud, I am unable to pull up the corresponding verse(s)

The following verses from the Tanach unambiguously prove that King Solomon indeed worshiped idols...

1 Kings 11:4

   As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his G-d, as the heart of David his father had been.

[/quote]


I disagree...

1 Kings 11:4

   As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods...

Notice "wives" in plural.  It means more than one wife induced Solomon to follow idols including Pharaoh's daughter.  It was not restricted only to Pharaoh's daughter.  However I do agree with you on your point about acquiring excessive horses.

1 Kings 11:5 reads:

He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable "god" of the Ammonites

Verse 5 was not about Pharoh's daughter because Molech was the native "god" of the Ammonites and that idol was worshiped by queen Naamah, the mother of Solomon's successor King Rehoboam.

[Christian Zionist]

Muman, regarding Solomon's idol worship, let us assume that he did not directly worship idols.

However while finding an explanation about Athalia please include Namaah too.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5758/shoftim.html

Also, the Torah says the King should not acquire too many horses lest he bring the nation back to Egypt.   Shlomo also thought since he knew the reason for this, he'll get lots of horses but he just won't bring the nation back to egypt.   He erred here too.   So the one you quoted about too many wives, and the too many horses are the two places where Shlomo knew the reason for the mitzvot and then sinned because of it thinking the reason doesn't apply in his case so he can disobey the commandment.    The Talmud in Sanhedrin teaches that this is why we are not provided with the reasons for all the other commandments, because in these two that did have reasons attached, one of the greatest of all men went astray because of it.   All the moreso the rest of us would mess up.

This is an interesting insight for those people who insist that the prohibition against pork is due to trichinosis, in order to protect us from that (or other) health ailment.  Even if that WAS so (which it seems obvious it isn't true), in that case a person cannot say 'the reason doesn't apply' (since there's no longer a risk of trichinosis) and choose not to keep the mitzvah.   We see that it would be a sin to do so.

[muman613]

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5758/shoftim.html

Also, the Torah says the King should not acquire too many horses lest he bring the nation back to Egypt.   Shlomo also thought since he knew the reason for this, he'll get lots of horses but he just won't bring the nation back to egypt.   He erred here too.   So the one you quoted about too many wives, and the too many horses are the two places where Shlomo knew the reason for the mitzvot and then sinned because of it thinking the reason doesn't apply in his case so he can disobey the commandment.    The Talmud in Sanhedrin teaches that this is why we are not provided with the reasons for all the other commandments, because in these two that did have reasons attached, one of the greatest of all men went astray because of it.   All the moreso the rest of us would mess up.

This is an interesting insight for those people who insist that the prohibition against pork is due to trichinosis, in order to protect us from that (or other) health ailment.  Even if that WAS so (which it seems obvious it isn't true), in that case a person cannot say 'the reason doesn't apply' (since there's no longer a risk of trichinosis) and choose not to keep the mitzvah.   We see that it would be a sin to do so.

Very true... I agree concerning the 'reason for a mitzvah'...

[Christian Zionist]

Deuteronomy 17:16

"The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again."

[muman613]

Deuteronomy 17:16

"The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again."

And a Jewish King must always carry two Torah scrolls on his person...

http://www.torah.org/learning/livinglaw/5766/shoftim.html

Parshas Shoftim
Melech: The King and I

The Mitzvah:

Once the Jewish people entered the Holy Land there was the mitzvah of appointing a Melech, king. Chosen from among his brethren, the Jewish monarch was to be accorded the utmost respect by his subjects and any rebellion against him was punishable by death. He himself was subject to several specific laws such as writing an additional Torah scroll, and prohibited from amassing an excessive amount of wives, of gold and horses (Deuteronomy 17:14-20)

What lies behind the figurehead of a king? And what is to be the relationship between a Jewish sovereign and that of his subjects the Jewish people?

A king summons up the concept of “fear”. The personification of authority, his word is the law of the land: Dina d’malchusa dina, the law of the kingdom is the law [to be upheld] (Gittin 10b). The king is unyielding. His honor – accorded by the position not his personality – cannot be waived or compromised. “If a king renounced his honor, his honor is not renounced” (Kesuvos 17a). Insubordination towards the monarch, of any kind, is not tolerated.

His importance can be understood based on the principle that there is always a parallel between the spiritual and physical worlds. Here, the concept of human kingship is a metaphor to the Kingship of G-d. “The royalty on earth reflects the royalty of Heaven” (Berachos 58a).

In general, the underlying relationship between G-d and this world is as its All-Powerful Ruler; he is melech malchei hamelachim, “the King of all kings”. But to the chosen nation, He is also a Father who typically displays “love and compassion” onto his children. Therefore, in their prayers, the Jewish people incorporate both aspects of their divine worship. They view G-d as Ovinu Malkeinu, “Our Father and Our King”.

In the Jewish nation’s divine worship, the first step is obedience “out of fear”. He does not want to flaunt any one of the King’s 613 commandments dreading the possible consequences. This corresponds to yiras Hashem, divine reverence. Fear of punishment and retribution from the mighty king, albeit the category of sheloy lishma, “not for the sake of His Name” is nevertheless the springboard through which to progress onto the higher dimension – namely that of serving G-d lishma, ”for the sake of His Name”. This elevated category bespeaks ahavas Hashem, serving G-d “out of love”.

The respect, awe and authority of a human king were the means to instill fear into his subjects. All his grandeur, affluence and influence cannot be for his self-glorification. Rather, it was as a means to come onto fear of G-d, the King of all kings.

A Jewish king had to constantly focus on his mission. His destiny requires that he impose his stamp and mark upon his people. The anointed leader of his people, he was divinely entrusted to supervise his subjects and to faithfully live by the dictates of the Torah. That a Torah scroll always accompanies the king, acts as a constant and powerful reminder how both he and his subjects are inextricably bound to the laws of G-d. The king was similarly instructed not to pursue wealth, women and military strength because this would distract him from his role.

It would have been ideal had the Jewish people risen to the higher level of ahavas Hashem, serving G-d out of love without ever requiring the presence of a human king to impose and implement the concept of yiras Hashem, “divine service out of fear”. This explains why this mitzvah is seemingly phrased as “optional” rather than obligatory. Only if the people ask for a monarch, something which they historically requested in the time of the prophet Shmuel, should the necessary steps by taken.

The king is there because he is the one who is entrusted to redirect all the fear he garners from his subjects onto the King of kings. The Jewish sovereign is the Torah leader of his people constantly concerned for their physical and spiritual welfare. In this respect, Jewish rabbinic leaders are similarly described as royalty (Gittin 62a).

The Jewish nation anxiously waits for the day when G-d will be universally heralded as Master of the Universe and crowned King by the entire world.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That's one of the best parshas IMO.

[muman613]

That's one of the best Parashat IMO.

It is hard for me to name my 'favorite' Parasha... I love so many of them... Yisro, Mishpatim, Shemos, oh I can't even begin to list them.

[muman613]

CZ,

The argument you are bringing up here is a common argument used by Christian Missionaries... I have found an anti-missionary site which explains this 'apparent paradox'...

http://www.messiahtruth.com/genealogyb.html

2.      Was Rehoboam A Jew via Father or Mother?

 

This issue has been raised by missionaries as a challenge to the notion that, in Judaism, a person's Jewish identity is determined either by having a Jewish mother or by formal ritual conversion to Judaism.  Putting aside, for now, the option of formal ritual conversion, the missionaries charge that, if a person's mother has to be Jewish to make that person Jewish, then Rehoboam was not Jewish, since his mother was allegedly not Jewish:

 

I Kings 14:21 - And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah; forty-one years old was Rehoboam when he became king, and seventeen years he reigned in Jerusalem, the city that the L-rd has chosen to place His Name there out of all the tribes of Israel; and his mother’s name was Naamah the Ammonitess.

 

And, allegedly according to Torah, Ammonites and Moabites were not allowed to convert to Judaism:

 

Deuteronomy 23:4 - An Ammonite (ammoni in Hebrew) and a Moabite (mo'avi in Hebrew) shall not enter into the congregation of the L-rd; even their tenth generation shall not enter into the congregation of the L-rd forever;

 

But the Torah requires a king of Israel to be Jewish:

 

Deuteronomy 17:15 - You shall surely set over yourself a king whom the L-rd, your G-d, shall choose; from among your brethren shall you set king over yourself; you may not place over yourself a foreign man, one who is not your brother.

 

And therefore, the missionary argument continues, since G-d would not place a man who was not a Jew on the throne of David, Rehoboam had to be Jewish, not by his mother, Naamah the Ammonitess, but by his father, Solomon.

 

On the surface, this challenge may appear to be a "slam-dunk" for the missionaries (and, hence, for Christian theology).  On the one hand, if their claim that Jewish identity is passed by the father were to hold up, they would have demonstrated that the requirement of having a Jewish mother is a later addition to Jewish Law.  On the other hand, if that challenge is defeated, the missionaries may come back and then claim that Rehoboam was not a Jew, since his mother was not allowed to convert to Judaism, thus he would be disqualified from having the Jewish Messiah come from his lineage.  And since he was the only son of Solomon listed in the Hebrew Bible, that would imply that Judaism faces an insurmountable problem with the origin of its Messiah.

 

Let us go beyond the surface and take a closer look at the missionary claim.  The Torah says the following concerning intermarriage with several nations the Israelites will face upon entering the Promised Land:

 

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 – (3) And you shall not intermarry with them; your daughter you shall not give to his son, and his daughter you shall not take for your son.  (4) For he will cause your son to turn away from following Me, and they will serve other gods; then the wrath of the L-rd will be kindled against you, and He will soon destroy you.

 

The (Hebrew) wording and the knowledge of Torah are crucial in understanding what these two verses actually say.  The Torah teaches two important concepts here.  On the one hand, with the understanding that the 'he' in v. 4 refers to the Gentile father-in-law, we interpret 'your son' as the son of the Israelite father, who is marrying the daughter of the Gentile father, clearly the verse indicates that the Israelite son will 'follow other gods', which means that children of this marriage will be Gentiles, following the race and faith of the Gentile mother.

 

On the other hand, with the understanding that the 'he' in v. 4 refers to the Gentile the daughter of an Israelite marries, then, as is not uncommon in the Hebrew Bible, 'son' is interpretted to mean grandson (e.g., Zechariah the 'son' of Iddo [Ezra 5:1]; Zerubbabel the 'son' of Shealtiel [Hag 1:1]).  So that, by calling the son of an Israelite (Jewish) mother and Gentile father the 'son' of the Israelite (Jewish) grandfather in v. 4, it may be deduced that this child was to be regarded as being of the same race and faith as the mother.  In either case, and according to Jewish Law, the child of a Jewish father and a Gentile mother follows the religious status of the mother.

 

Are there examples from Scripture that support this deduction?  Indeed there are.  Here is one such example:

 

Exodus 21:4 - If his [the Israelite servant's] master has given him a wife, and she has born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he [the Israelite servant] shall go out by himself.

 

This refers to a Gentile bondmaid given as wife to a Hebrew slave.  The children remain slaves when their father is freed, showing that they bear their mother's status.  According to Torah, an Israelite master may not give an Israelite bondmaid as a wife to someone other than his own son, or take her as a wife for himself (Exod 21:8-9).

 

In the next example, the son of a Jewish mother and a Gentile father is subjected to the Jewish Law as stated in Torah.:

 

Leviticus 24:10-16 – (10) And the son of an Israelite woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the people of Israel; and this son of the Israelite woman and a man of Israel fought in the camp;  (11) And the Israelite woman’s son blasphemed the Name of the L-rd, and cursed. And they brought him to Moses; and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan; (12) And they put him in custody, that the will of the L-rd might be shown to them.  (13) And the L-rd spoke to Moses, saying, (14) "Bring forth him who has cursed outside the camp; and let all who heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. (15) And you shall speak to the people of Israel, saying, 'Whoever curses his G-d shall bear his sin. (16) And he who blasphemes the Name of the L-rd, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him; as well the stranger, as he who is born in the land, when he blasphemes the name of the L-rd, shall be put to death'."

 

While the above example applies to both Jews and Gentiles, the following example, clearly demonstrates that the children of the Jewish fathers and Gentile mothers were to be cast out along with their Gentile mothers, to "… be done according to the Torah.":

 

Ezra 10:2-3 – (2) And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said to Ezra, "We have trespassed against our G-d, and have taken foreign wives from the peoples of the land; yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this matter. (3) And now, let us make a covenant with our G-d to cast out all such women,and those born of them, according to the counsel of the L-rd, and of those who hasten [to perform] the commandment of our G-d; and let it be done according to the Torah.

 

These examples demonstrate the fact that Jewish identity is determined by the mother, not by the father.  Moreover, recent research in genetics has isolated a genetic marker that identifies female Jewish ancestry.  This marker resides in the female's mitochondrial DNA, which scientifically confirms the provisions of Jewish Law.  Namely, that this genetic marker is passed exclusively from a Jewish mother to her daughters, thereby making the female the one who determines Jewish identity.

 

Y      Conclusion:  The Hebrew Bible proves the missionary claim, that Jewish Law was changed by the Rabbis from the father determining Jewish identity to the mother determining Jewish identity, is bogus!

 

Now that it has been demonstrated that, according to Torah, the mother determines the Jewish identity of the children, let us check the other side of the missionary argument - Rehoboam was not a Jew, since his mother was not allowed to convert to Judaism, thus he would be disqualified from having the Jewish Messiah come from his lineage.

 

There are two very strong arguments to counter this claim.  First, of course, is the above-stated Torah requirement that a king of Israel must be a Jew (Deut 17:15) and, as we read in I Kgs 11:13, G-d approved Rehoboam to reign as king.  Surely G-d would not break His own rule.  So it may safely be concluded that Rehoboam was indeed a Jew.  How he acquired his Jewish identity is not spelled out in the Hebrew Bible, but there are only two options available here – either his mother, Naamah converted to Judaism before she bore him, or he himself converted to Judaism.

 

Second, recall the prohibition in Deut 23:4 about an Ammonite and a Moabite not being allowed to convert to Judaism.  In the Hebrew text, the terms ammoni and mo'avi are used, which translate as Ammonite male and Moabite male – the respective Hebrew terms for a female are ammonit and mo'avit.  Nehemiah states the reason for this:

 

Nehemiah 13:1-2 – (1) On that day they read from the Book of Moses in the hearing of the people; and was found written in it that the Ammonite and the Moabite should never come into the congregation of G-d;  (2) Because they did not meet the people of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them; but our G-d turned the curse into a blessing.

 

Now recall that Ruth was a Moabitess.  According to the missionary claim, she could not have converted to Judaism per Deut 23:4.  Given, as demonstrated, that the mother determines Jewish identity, how could Ruth have become the ancestor of David, the greatest king of the Jewish people?  Clearly, she converted to Judaism, and she indicates her intentions to Naomi, her mother-in-law, when she says to her, “…For where you go, I will go; where you lodge, I will lodge; your people are my people, and your G-d is my G-d;…” (Ruth 1:16-17)  The Sages of the Talmud (Tractate Ketubot, 7b) explain the reason why only Ammonite and Moabite males may not convert to Judaism.  It is because only the man was expected to leave his house and bring food and drink to the traveler – a woman was not expected to do that for obvious reasons.  Accordingly, the interpretation of the law (Deut 23:4), which had to be rendered by ten elders, is that the prohibition to enter into the assembly of the L-rd, i.e., to be admitted into the community of Israel, applied only to Ammonite and Moabite males, not to females.

 

Y      Conclusion:  The missionary claim that Rehoboam's mother, Naamah the Ammonitess, could not convert to Judaism per Deut 23:4 is bogus!  Naamah the Ammonitess was able to convert to Judaism just as Ruth the Moabitess, David's great-grandmother, was able to do it several generations earlier.

 

[Christian Zionist]

Muman,

To be honest with you I did not find my points in any missionary sources.   I've never heard of a missionary using Rehoboam/Naamah example.  I did my own research. I also believe that Ruth indeed converted to Judaism.


The MT website makes assumptions that King Rehoboam or Naamah converted to Judaism but it is not stated in the Tanach that they did.

2 Chronicles 12:1

After Rehoboam's position as king was established and he had become strong, he and all Israel with him abandoned the law of the LORD.

The following verses from Tanach do not give an indication that Rehoboam coverted to Judaism.

2 Chronicles 12:2

   Because they had been unfaithful to the LORD, Shishak king of Egypt attacked Jerusalem in the fifth year of King Rehoboam.

2 Chronicles 12:14

   He did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the LORD.



Also making assumptions that Ataliah and her son King Ahaziah converted to Judaism would contradict the following scriptures.  Even if we give the benefit of the doubt to Rehoboam the case against King Ahaziah (son of Athaliah) is too strong!

2 Chronicles 22:2

   Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem one year. His mother's name was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:3

   He too walked in the ways of the house of Ahab, for his mother encouraged him in doing wrong.

2 Chronicles 22:4

He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, as the house of Ahab had done, for after his father's death they became his advisers, to his undoing.

Regarding the MT website using the book of Ezra...

Ezra 2:59 Now these are those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan and Immer, but they were not able to give evidence of their fathers' households and their descendants, whether they were of Israel:

(why not mothers' households?)

Numbers 1:18

and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month. Then they registered by ancestry in their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman,

To be honest with you I did not find my points in any missionary sources.   I've never heard of a missionary using Rehoboam/Naamah example.  I did my own research.

Perhaps they just came to a similar (or the same) conclusion.   I would go through Muman's answer but my eyes are getting too tired tonight.   Goodnight guys.   

[muman613]

Regarding numbers 1:18 is an easy explanation...

I have heard this explained... Hashem did several censuses on the Jewish people, this is why the book of Exodus is called Shemos {Names} and the book of Bamidbar is called Numbers... Each time Hashem was counting his children using different methods...

Let me find a reference to this concept:

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading_cdo/aid/36466/showrashi/true

According to Rashi this census was to determine which tribe each Jew was from... Tribal affiliation is only through the father, not the mother... So this census was not to determine if they were Jewish or not, they all were Jewish at this point due to their experience at Sinai... Only the males 20 and older...

This has nothing to do with determining Jewish descent...

18. and they assembled all the congregation on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees according to their families according to their fathers' houses; according to the number of names, a head count of every male from twenty years old and upward.         יח. וְאֵת כָּל הָעֵדָה הִקְהִילוּ בְּאֶחָד לַחֹדֶשׁ הַשֵּׁנִי וַיִּתְיַלְדוּ עַל מִשְׁפְּחֹתָם לְבֵית אֲבֹתָם בְּמִסְפַּר שֵׁמוֹת מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה לְגֻלְגְּלֹתָם:

and they declared their pedigrees according to their families: They brought the records of their pedigrees and witnesses of their birth claims, so that each one should trace his genealogy to a tribe.

[muman613]

Rashi Studies (Advanced)
Why Another Census?

Adapted by Chaim Miller; From the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe
Classic Questions

Why did G-d instruct Moshe to take a census of the Jewish people? (v. 1:1)

Rashi: Because they are precious to Him, He counts them all the time:

   1. When they left Egypt, He counted them;1
   2. When they sinned with the Calf, He counted them to know the number of the survivors;2 and
   3. When He rested His Presence among them, He counted them—on the first of Nisan the Tabernacle was erected, and on the first of Iyar [when this verse was said], He counted them.

Midrash: The Jewish people were counted on ten occasions:

   1. Once when they went down to Egypt;3
   2. Once when they departed from Egypt;4
   3. Once in [the beginning of the] Book of Numbers;
   4. Once in connection with the Spies;
   5. Once in the days of Yehoshua, when the Land was divided;
   6. Twice in the days of Sha'ul;5
   7. Once in the days of David;6
   8. Once in the days of Ezra;7 and
   9. Once in the future to come.8

The Rebbe's Teachings

He Counts Them All the Time" (Rashi, v. 1)

Rashi's comments on verse 1 appear to be self-contradictory. First he writes that since the Jewish people are precious to G-d, "He counts them all the time." But then Rashi continues that G-d only counted the Jewish people on special occasions ("when they left Egypt... when they sinned with the calf... when He rested His Presence among them"), and not "all the time."

Furthermore, Rashi was surely familiar with the teaching of the Midrash that the Jewish people will only be counted ten times throughout history. So how could Rashi state that G-d "counts them all the time"?

The Explanation

G-d's affection is extended towards the Jewish people at all times. And since counting is a direct result of this affection, Rashi writes, "Because they are precious to Him (which is all the time), He counts them all the time."

In order to prove this point, Rashi continues, "When they left Egypt, He counted them." This refers to the verse in Parshas Bo, which states: "The children of Israel journeyed from Ramses to Sukos, about six hundred thousand men."9 Since the Torah does not mention that any census took place, we can only assume that this number ("about six hundred thousand men") was counted by G-d Himself. This supports Rashi's assertion that "He counts them all the time," i.e., even when no actual census is taking place, G-d counts the Jewish people.

But how do we know that G-d's affection is extended to the Jewish people all the time, even when they do not act favorably in G-d's eyes? Rashi explains, "When they sinned with the Calf, He counted them." Clearly, if "they are [still] precious to Him" at such a difficult time, then G-d's affection evidently extends to the Jewish people "all the time."

However, this leaves us with a question: If G-d counts the Jewish people "all the time" in any case, why was an actual census required here in our parshah? Rashi explains, "When He rested His Presence among them, He counted them," i.e., our parshah speaks of a time when G-d openly and visibly expressed His affection for the Jewish people by causing His Presence to rest among them. Therefore, it was appropriate that, likewise, the Jewish people should be counted openly and visibly.

And similarly, all the ten countings enumerated in the Midrash were associated with special events, which necessitated a special counting.10
FOOTNOTES
1.    Shemos 12:37
2.    Shemos 32:28
3.    Devarim 10:22
4.    Shemos 12:37
5.    Sam. I 15:4; ibid. 11:8
6.    ibid. II 24:9
7.    Ezra 2:64
8.    see Jer. 33:13; Tanchuma, Ki Sisa 9
9.    Shemos 12:37
10.    Based on Sichas Shabbos Parshas Bamidbar 5745

[The One and Only Mo]

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