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People Kept Kosher Even Before The Torah Was Given!!!

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muman613:
The parallel I think which can be drawn is from our Purim story...

We all know that the Jewish people were invited to Achashveros party... The party was catered with Kosher food but they ate and drank from the holy vessels of the Temple which the king had plundered.... The Jewish people were judged harshly, with the evil decree, because they attended the party... They ate the food of the king...

http://www.kby.org/torah/article.cfm?articleid=1326

--- Quote ---This explains the ambiguity of the first Gemara. The Jews didn't violate any commandment by attending the party. All the food was kosher and served by Jewish attendants. The problem was that they received benefit from a rasha. They should have hated the wicked Achashverosh and despised being forced to eat his food. The foreign cuisine should have tasted like cardboard, because it originated from an evil person. If they had gone only with the intention of not upsetting Achashverosh, this would have been so. But, the Gemara testifies, their intentions were less that altruistic; they ate, drank and were merry.
--- End quote ---

Sefardic Panther:
Kahane-Was-Right BT where did I say that the Zohar says Gentiles should convert to Judaism? I never said the Zohar says that. I only referenced the Zohar in explaining why the Jews were enslaved in egypt. In present times no sane individual could realistically expect all Gentiles to convert to Judaism given that most Gentiles hate the Jews and don’t even think we are human.


--- Quote from: muman613 on October 14, 2009, 11:56:34 AM ---I would be interested in a more specific reference to the page and line # of this particular discussion...

--- End quote ---

Unfortunately I don’t own a full set of the Zohar books so I cannot look up the exact page and line of that discussion. But I know it is definitely near the start of Parashat Shemoth.

Sefardic Panther:

--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 02:47:12 PM ---Well even if Noah and his family didn’t eat the extra Kosher animals (although in Bereishith ch.9 Hashem did specifically tell them not to eat blood) the point is there was still a distinction between Kosher and treif animals long before the Torah was given.

I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.

--- End quote ---

I have realized I was not entirely correct about that. The implication is that Hashem ORIGINALLY WANTED all humanity to be Jewish. As Talmud Bavli Avodah Zarah 2b says Hashem offered the Torah to every nation but only the Jews accepted it.

If Noahides have their own countries then they could be prosperous. But I think some of the laws of Kashruth are binding on Noahides. For instance because of the law against cruelty to animals they should perform Kosher slaughter since it is the only humane way to kill an animal. They are also forbidden to eat shellfish since they have to be cooked alive. Shellfish should not be removed from the ocean because they are a vital part of the eco system. They clean up all the dead fish and toxic waste. Likewise pigs should not be farmed, they should be let loose to clean up excrement and dead animals.

Raulmarrio2000:
According to one summary of midrashim I read while aming to convert, Hashem would have given the Torah to Adam and Havah if they hadn't sinned. In that case all Humanity would have been Jewish.
When Torah was given at Mt Sinai, all nations were asked if they wanted it, but as far as I know, it was a free choice.
The distiction between kosher and impure animals is mentioned regarding Noah, from the context we may think that it was already known before Noah, since Torah says Hashem ordered him to take seven couples of clean (kosher) animals, but He does not explain Noah which animal was clean. So we may think that the distinction was widely known at that time. That distiction was necessary to offer sacrifices, and perhaps many people also avoided eating unclean animals, as many peolpes still do today, but there is no commandment to keep kosher. People naturally avoids taht which is dirty, but it doen't mean it is forbidden to them.
I haven't read that midrash saying that Israelites were punished for not keeping kosher. Now, we know that pre-Torah Israelites voluntarily kept the mitzvot by inspiration before they were revealed, so it is quite possible that they used to keep kosher. Being that the case, if that midarsh is to be taken literarily and Israelites were punished for neglecting kosher, it may still mean that they had neglected a good practise they had taken upon themselves to honour Hashem. Being that they knew by prophesy taht they would be the Chosen People, neglecting a mitzva, even if still not commanded, could perhaps be considered wrong.
But all mitzvot of the Torah not included in the Noahide Laws or their derivation are not binding of plain Gentiles. If everyone were Jewish, then Israel would not be a nation.

Sveta:
Shalom,
Did people keep kosher before the Torah was given? Wether or not people did...perhaps things like this might have something to do with the fact that seven items were created before the world was.
The Torah, Tshuva, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of Moshiach.
Before the world was created, before Noah before Moshe before the Torah was given.... It was already created, along within it the laws of kashrut.

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