Author Topic: Cryogenics  (Read 4942 times)

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Offline zionistfp

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Cryogenics
« on: October 13, 2009, 04:52:04 PM »
What do people here think about getting frozen when they die?  It seems rather ghoulish, but perhaps it is in keeping with the Jewish idea of resurrection of the dead. 

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 05:05:05 PM »
I think it is a rip off. I mean, how long does the brain stay dead before they freeze it, if its more than a few minutes it would be no good. Even if there it would be possible to revive the body somehow, the mind would be blank.

Moshe92

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 05:11:43 PM »
I don't see what that has to do with resurrection of the dead. If anything, that practice is anti-Jewish.

Offline SW

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 05:18:06 PM »
I don't think it's necessary because your soul will go to heaven.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 05:22:28 PM »
I don't think it's necessary because your soul will go to heaven.
Well, the thing is, not everyone believe that there is a sole that remains after death.

Offline SW

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 05:25:47 PM »
I don't think it's necessary because your soul will go to heaven.
Well, the thing is, not everyone believe that there is a sole that remains after death.

Who doesn't? Christians do.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 05:29:47 PM »
I am skeptic.

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 06:25:47 PM »
I am skeptic.

Well the belief in ressurection of the Dead is one of the thirteen core Jewish beliefs as laid out by Rambam. It is said that a Jew who does not believe in it is a heretic...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2626/jewish/The-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-live-and-live-again/02.htm
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(Back to text) Rashi comments: "I.e., he denies the validity of the Scriptural interpretations - at the [non-literal] level of derush - through which the Gemara below proceeds to derive Scriptural authority for the concept of Resurrection. Even if he concedes and believes that the dead will be resurrected, but denies that this belief is alluded to in the Torah, he is a heretic (kofer). Since he denies its Biblical source, of what value to us is his faith? From where does he know that this is the case? Accordingly, he is unequivocally considered a heretic."
http://www.neveh.org/winston/parsha58/devarim.html
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"These do not have a portion in the World-to-Come: One who denies that Resurrection of the Dead is from the Torah; one who says that Torah is not from Heaven, and a heretic." (Sanhedrin 90a)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zionistfp

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 01:02:51 PM »
I don't see what that has to do with resurrection of the dead. If anything, that practice is anti-Jewish.

It seems to me it's easier to be resurrected if your body is as intact as possible.  To my understanding, Judaism frowns upon cremation for this reason.  So logically, Judaism should support crogenic preservation.


Offline Zelhar

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 01:55:28 PM »
WEll Muman, I think you know I am secular.

But aside from that, not everyone agrees with the Rambam's inclusion of the resurrection article as a pillar of the Jewish faith. Other great scholars didn't include this article. Belief in the life beyond death is not really necessary for practicing Judaism except perhaps that a a Jew must believe in some sort of final messianic redemption. Personally I think this is a rabbinc add-on with little to no scriptural basis, but it sort of became a common principle to all faithful Jews.

And I forgot to mention- Belief in a resurrection is independent from belief in life after death (between death until resurrection).

Offline briann

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 02:05:03 PM »
I think its HIGHLY improbable, but I suppose, under perfect circumstances, and with breakthroughs in technology it could be achieved.  The body would have to be frozen in a very specific way, as to not damage the cells, and it would have to be done immediately after death.  But as of now, the technology just doesn't exist to do this.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 03:27:26 PM »
Conquering your sexual desires Taoist-style is one of the prerequisites for obtaining an immortal soul, or so I've read...

Offline briann

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 03:31:45 PM »
Conquering your sexual desires Taoist-style is one of the prerequisites for obtaining an immortal soul, or so I've read...

Well then, strike 1 for Taosim, because I think that is an awful prerequisite.  I think conquering your desires for self-destructive addictions/desires is positive, but sexual desires are NOT destructive for the vast majority of us.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 03:52:49 PM »
Conquering your sexual desires Taoist-style is one of the prerequisites for obtaining an immortal soul, or so I've read...

Well then, strike 1 for Taosim, because I think that is an awful prerequisite.  I think conquering your desires for self-destructive addictions/desires is positive, but sexual desires are NOT destructive for the vast majority of us.


In Taoism it would not mean suppressing desires, but abstaining from orgasms since it is a great loss of vital energy (boxer's know this), use the sexual energy (bio-electricity) to feed the brain and body which will also diminish perverted desires, learn to distinguise between perverted desires and 'love-making' and eventually experience internal orgasms without ejeculation.

Rosicrucian knowledge tells of 'Karma-swapping' during sex, thus explaining the spiritual/energetic purity of virgins.
Sex = mixing of Spirit / Spirit-pollution.

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 05:20:27 PM »
Why all this talk about strange ideology here? Many of these philosophies are patently against the Jewish belief. Of course you can believe what you want but any Jew who may be interested in this avodah zara could be damaged eternally...

Also it is questionable to use such sexually explicit language in this forum...

The man/woman union is the most blessed of unions in Judaism. We do not think that sex is dirty or perverted.. A man or woman who dies as a virgin may not attain Gan Eden because they did not fulfill the commandment to be fruitful and multiply... We have no merit for those who abstain..



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zionistfp

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 05:24:08 PM »
Actually I was just chatting about this with a beautiful woman I know, and we had the idea of taking up a collection so that Chaim and David ben Moshe can be cryogenically suspended when they pass so that they can be brought back a la Austin Powers down the road.  

As I noted above, it seems to me this is really in keeping with the spirit of Judaism.  Cryogenic suspension is pretty much the opposite of cremation.

Is anyone interested in contributing?

Moshe92

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 05:24:59 PM »
Conquering your sexual desires Taoist-style is one of the prerequisites for obtaining an immortal soul, or so I've read...

Well then, strike 1 for Taosim, because I think that is an awful prerequisite.  I think conquering your desires for self-destructive addictions/desires is positive, but sexual desires are NOT destructive for the vast majority of us.


In Taoism it would not mean suppressing desires, but abstaining from orgasms since it is a great loss of vital energy (boxer's know this), use the sexual energy (bio-electricity) to feed the brain and body which will also diminish perverted desires, learn to distinguise between perverted desires and 'love-making' and eventually experience internal orgasms without ejeculation.

Rosicrucian knowledge tells of 'Karma-swapping' during sex, thus explaining the spiritual/energetic purity of virgins.
Sex = mixing of Spirit / Spirit-pollution.

I don't know much about sex, but that sounds like complete nonsense.

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 05:26:08 PM »
I don't see how this has anything remotely to do with Jewish belief.

We don't believe that the body is that important... The eternal soul is what is important. The body is just a container, a klippah... We should not worship our bodies. I disagree that this is good by Jewish standards. It leads to worshipping the body.

We know that Hashem can make dirt into a human, and a human can decompose to dust... He is just as capable of putting this dust back together into our body, even if it is blown away...

PS : The wicked Egyptians tried this with Mummification... See what happened to the Egyptians...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 05:29:22 PM »

http://koltorah.org/Volume_15/17_Vayechi.htm

Mummy’s Miracle
by Doniel Sherman

In this week’s Parasha, Yosef gives the order for Yaakov’s body to be mummified. The Pasuk says, “Vaytzav Yosef Et Avadav Et HaRof’im Lachanot Et Aviv,” “And Yosef ordered his servants and physicians to embalm his father” (50:2). However, Bereishit 3:19 says, “Ki Afar Atah VeEl Afar Tashuv,” “For you are dust, and to dust shall you return,” from which we infer that mummification is prohibited by Torah law! How, then, could Yosef prescribe it for his father?

The Or HaChaim suggests an answer to this question. He points out that a Tzadik’s body never fully decomposes, so Yaakov, as a Tzadik, would merit having his body preserved. The Mitzrim observed a seventy-day mourning period before entombing the dead body, which meant that the Egyptians would see the miracle of Yaakov’s body’s preservation. Because of this miracle, they would worship Yaakov and perhaps turn his body into an idol. Therefore, Yosef had the Egyptians embalm the body, so they would attribute the lack of deterioration to their own skills. Thus, Yosef was preventing Yaakov from joining the pantheon of Egyptian gods.

The Torah says that the physicians worked on the embalming process for forty days and that the Mitzrim wept for seventy days. Rashi teaches that Yaakov’s “embalming” involved only the usage of a mixture of nice-smelling spices on the body. Therefore, Rav Aryeh Kaplan further explains that Yaakov’s partial embalming took only forty days, while a regular embalming process would have taken seventy days. After the forty days of Yakov’s partial embalming, though, the Mitzrim continued to mourn for another thirty days to finish the regular mummification and mourning period. Perhaps the reason the Mitzrim felt compelled to finish the grieving process, as opposed to ending after forty days, was that they had not realized that Yaakov’s “mummification” was finished and that his lack of deterioration was a miracle from Hashem.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zionistfp

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 05:29:29 PM »
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I don't see how this has anything remotely to do with Jewish belief.

Do you agree that Judaism frowns on cremation?  

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 05:30:45 PM »
Quote
I don't see how this has anything remotely to do with Jewish belief.

Do you agree that Judaism frowns on cremation?  

Obviously..


According to belief the Luz bone is required to exist in order for Ressucitation of the dead to occur.. Cremation destroys this...

Quote

Dr. Aharon Altabe from Paris, Francewrote:

    Dear Rabbi,

    The Sefer Ta'amei Haminhagim states in the name of Eliyahu Rabba and Zohar that there is a bone in the brain which never vanishes. You can't burn it, break it or mill it. I believe it b'emuna shelemah - with utmost faith - but I would like to know if someone could tell me more about it: Did you see it or read about it or hear a Rav ... or a physician who could give the name of such a bone? Thanks to you.

Dear Dr. Aharon Altabe,

Yes, according to tradition there is a kind of bone or organ no bigger than a barley corn called the luz or neskvi; its shape is almost cubic and apparently it lies at the top of the spine, inside the skull underneath the brain. It is described as having within it many intertwined spider-like blood vessels.

It has curious properties: It receives nourishment only from food eaten Saturday night at the melave malka meal. And, yes, it is indestructible and doesn't decay in the grave. The Midrash says that the Roman Hadrian once took a luz and tried to grind it, burn it, and dissolve it in water, to no avail. When he hammered it against an anvil, the hammer and anvil broke!

The future resurrection of the dead will be from this bone; that is, a person will be resurrected from his luz bone.

The idea behind it is this: The luz symbolizes the point where physical and spiritual meet. Thus, it is nourished only from melave malka, the meal eaten between the spiritual Shabbat and the physical weekday. It's like the Western Wall: Just as the Western Wall will never be destroyed, and from it the Third Temple will be built, so too the luz is never destroyed, and from it the person will be re-built during the future resurrection.

Regarding the precise identity of the bone, I advise asking Dr. Eli Temstet from Paris. I am sure he can be of help.

Sources

    * Sefer Ta'amei Haminhagim 425
    * Bereishet Rabba 25
    * Mishna Berurah 300:2
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zionistfp

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2009, 05:32:15 PM »
Ok and why is cremation frowned upon . . . if the body is not that important?

For that matter, if the body is not that important, what's wrong with getting tattooed?


Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2009, 05:33:01 PM »
Ok and why is cremation frowned upon . . . if the body is not that important?

For that matter, if the body is not that important, what's wrong with getting tattooed?



See what I wrote about the luz bone in the previous post..

Regardign tatoos... There are two mitzvahs which are violated when one tatoos himself:

1) Do not make marks on your body...

2) Emulating the ways of the nations

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/224,120/What-does-Judaism-say-about-tattoos.html
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/631046/jewish/Why-Does-Judaism-Forbid-Tattoos.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2009, 05:35:06 PM »
The source of this prohibition is Leviticus 19:28: "You shall not etch a tattoo on yourselves." This prohibition applies to all tattoos besides those made for medical purposes such as to guide a surgeon making an incision.

Although some of the commentaries1 seems to believe that this is one of the Torah's chukim--the commandments whose rationales transcend the ken of human intellect--other commentators do offer several explanations for this prohibition:

1) The human body is G‑d's creation, and it is therefore unbefitting to mutilate G‑d's handiwork. It is especially unbefitting for members of G‑d's chosen nation to mutilate their bodies. One must believe that G‑d, the greatest artisan of all, formed him or her in the most fitting way, and one must not change this form. Changing one's body (unless it is for the health reasons) is tantamount to insulting G‑d's handiwork.2

2) In ancient times it was customary for idol worshippers to tattoo themselves as a sign of commitment to their deity—much like an animal that is branded by its owner. On many occasions the Torah forbids practices that emulate pagan customs—considering that following their traditions is the first step towards ascribing to their idolatrous beliefs and services.3

3) The covenant of circumcision is unique in its being a sign in our bodies of our relationship with G‑d. Making other signs in one's body would weaken and cheapen this special sign.4
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Cryogenics
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2009, 05:39:41 PM »
For more info see these links:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/284,2060899/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-cremation.html


The Jewish way of dealing with death is part of a larger philosophy of life, which views the human body as integral to one’s Divine service, so that even a body that is no longer alive is accorded the greatest consideration and respect.

The following is an excerpt from The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning by Rabbi Maurice Lamm:

Cremation is never permitted. The deceased must be interred, bodily, in the earth. It is forbidden-in every and any circumstance-to reduce the dead to ash in a crematorium. It is an offensive act. It does violence to the spirit and letter of Jewish law, which never, in the long past, sanctioned the ancient pagan practice of burning on the pyre. The Jewish abhorrence of cremation has already been noted by Tacitus, the ancient historian, who remarked (upon what appeared to be a distinguishing characteristic) that Jews buried, rather than burned their dead.

    Even if the deceased willed cremation, his wishes must be ignored in order to observe the will of our Father in Heaven

Even if the deceased willed cremation, his wishes must be ignored in order to observe the will of our Father in Heaven. Biblical law takes precedence over the instructions of the deceased.

Cremated ashes may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery. There is no burial of ashes, and no communal responsibility to care, in any way, for the burned remains. The only exception is when the government decrees that the ashes be buried in the ground, and there is no other burial plot available to the family. For such unusual cases a portion of the Jewish cemetery must be marked off and set aside.

Jewish law requires no mourning for the cremated. Shivah is not observed and Kaddish is not recited for them. Those who are cremated are considered by tradition to have abandoned, unalterably, all of Jewish law and, therefore, to have surrendered their rights to posthumous honor.1



One of our Thirteen Principles of Faith is that there will be a resurrection of the dead. Someone who willingly requests to be cremated is essentially rejecting this principle.

Concerning such a person the Mishnah says (Sanhedrin 10:1): "All Jews have a portion in the world-to-come . . But these do not have a portion in the world-to-come: one who says, 'Resurrection of the dead is not from the Torah'..."

It is, however, possible for a descendant of the deceased to give charity and do mitzvos for the benefit of his/her ancestor and thus can gain atonement for the soul of the departed. Even if this condition is not met, the soul (which is divine and eternal) will come back for the Messianic Era but will have to be clothed in a different body.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14