Serbs in Turkey

[Spectator]

Spectator

I am not doing that. It seems that you are not being honnest to your self.
You think expelling Muslims is solution, than you must have the courage to express that opinion.

This means you don't understand me. The fact that I don't believe in Islam does not means that I will hate all people who were born under its influence. I don't have anything against people who don't challenge the customs of my country.

Another thing is when some group of people propagates hatred against my people and country and declares that they want to impose their way of life on me. And not only declares, but also wages war to reach these goals. The people who is involved in this must be expelled.

This does not mean that all the people Islamists govern share their views. They might have to agree with them publicly, because otherwise they can be killed, but this does not say they really share this view. Therefore, there is no need to expel ALL people of some national (Arab) or religious group (Islam as personal belief).  

[voo-yo]

Than he must have the courage to admit that like you..

He doesn't need courage. Just common sense. Only an idiot would allow muslims and hostile people to take over his country.

[Spectator]

On the other hand, SRP, Russians have expelled 3 million Germans from East Prussia in 1945, and divided their territory between themselves and Poland. Would you accuse Russians in ethnic cleansing? I won't.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Yes if there are no arguments left, blame it on the Russians... 

[Spectator]

Yes if there are no arguments left, blame it on the Russians... 

I put my arguments before you. And I mentioned Russians not to blame them but to praise them because I think they did the right thing.

But you don't seem to have any valid arguments against mine.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

I personally won't take USSR as an example..
You think that that kind of politic will succeed, I have a different opinion. We will see what the future will bring.

[Spectator]

I personally won't take USSR as an example..
You think that that kind of politic will succeed, I have a different opinion. We will see what the future will bring.

Regardless of our opinions of this historical event, this is not my main point.

The main point is whether you are going to tolerate people who are involved in real or propaganda war against my country, and call the measures against them ethnic cleansing.

[Kerber]

For SRS,

You are falling into something that is called "ethno-filetism",putting the ethnic background before everything else.If those Serbs are Muslims and not Biblicallly religious(which affects on practical everyday life and more important on long-term periods meaning on coexisting with non believers),that fact is more important than just Serbian genetic pool that they have.If you are Biblically religious(may be Orthodox),than you should know that G-d look at men not by their ethnicity,but their character,soul,deeds,are they on the side of G-d,the side of life,or not.

Those ideas of "ethno-filetism" are also proposed from the people who are not religious,and dr Seselj is one of them as he is the biggest promoter of "national awakening" for Bosniaks and Crotas.They are good by its character,but in the same time very,very naive and impossible.But,that's the case when man is not Biblically religious,than he can fall into trap that common ethnic background is more important than spiritual.That can be deadly mistake and that mistake is happening to Serbia for almost 20 years,where we have a situation that our country is led by people who also have Serbian ethnicity,but they do not have common "system of values",as they are NOT Biblically religious.So,their Serbianhood you can throw into water...they're bad people.

It's more important what man is by his character/spirit/soul(which religion creates almost completely) than ethnic background and genetic pool from centuries ago.I would rather prefer Biblically religious Bulgarian or Romanian or Jewish man,than islamised Serbs.

And the number of the "official" Serbs in Turkey isn't that high.The number of 9.000.000 is probably accurate enough ,but not for those who remained Serbs.That number counts for those who had Serbian ethnicity,but today they call themselves "Bosnikas" living in Turkey or they accepted Turkish nationality and got assimilated.And by that fact all those of Serbian ethnic background who rejected its ethnic heritage can't be count as "official" Serbs,although we know and we can say what their background is.

So,from that number of 9.000.000 people with Serbian background,maybe there is 1% that count themselves as Serbian.Of course,we can inform other people what their ethnicity is,but that's all we can do and we shouldn't insist that much on their "national awakening" as we could face the fact that large number of Muslim population would like to return to Serbia.
Personally,I would never want something like that to happen...

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

For SRS,

You are falling into something that is called "ethno-filetism",putting the ethnic background before everything else.If those Serbs are Muslims and not Biblicallly religious(which affects on practical everyday life and more important on long-term periods meaning on coexisting with non believers),that fact is more important than just Serbian genetic pool that they have.If you are Biblically religious(may be Orthodox),than you should know that G-d look at men not by their ethnicity,but their character,soul,deeds,are they on the side of G-d,the side of life,or not.

Ethno-filetism? I see we have a scholar type on this forum 

In your last post you talk about a lot of not relevant things. 

Brother, please try to understand this subject.
We are talking about simple facts, about Serbs who were converted into something else. You are thinking to difficult. I never said that ethnicity is more important or equal to spirituality, so please do not give unnecessary lections, which I already know.

I do not understand why you guys are being so difficult? Please think simply and logically. If ex-Serbs become aware of the fact that their ancestors were Orthodox Serbs, than the chance that they may return back to their original roots will increase. If these genetic Serbs of Turkey are aware of their Serbian heritage, than the claim of us, Orthodox Serbs, that Croatians and Bosniaks are assimilated Serbs will make more sense. These people want to support our side and you are naively condemning them. This behavior is against Serbian interests!
With this behavior you will send those Serbs to members of the Bosniak lobby, which is supported by the US and EU.
It surprises me that you people do not understand this. 
I see that as soon as you hear the word ''Muslim'' you start to loose your logic.
Your prejudices are making you guys sometimes blind.

You also are not able to separate Bosnian Muslims from other Muslims.
Not every Muslim is a Bosnian Muslims or a Albanian.
You must think about that.
Your prejudices are making you very blind sometimes.

[Spectator]

For SRS,

You are falling into something that is called "ethno-filetism",putting the ethnic background before everything else.If those Serbs are Muslims and not Biblicallly religious(which affects on practical everyday life and more important on long-term periods meaning on coexisting with non believers),that fact is more important than just Serbian genetic pool that they have.If you are Biblically religious(may be Orthodox),than you should know that G-d look at men not by their ethnicity,but their character,soul,deeds,are they on the side of G-d,the side of life,or not.

Ethno-filetism? I see we have a scholar type on this forum 

In your last post you talk about a lot of not relevant things. 

Brother, please try to understand this subject.

...

Your prejudices are making you very blind sometimes.

SRP, you accuse people of being "blind", "talking about irrelevant things", "giving unnecessary lessons you already know" ..

You are not free of pejudices and you don't have any authority over anyone here.

Learn to respect your opponents. What is irrelevant to you might be very relevant to the others.

[Kerber]

Ethno-filetism? I see we have a scholar type on this forum 

No,just an ordinary man.

In your last post you talk about a lot of not relevant things. 

Everything I mentioned is relevant,but the question is have you got the point.
You should say what was irrelevant.

Brother, please try to understand this subject.
We are talking about simple facts, about Serbs who were converted into something else. You are thinking to difficult. I never said that ethnicity is more important or equal to spirituality, so please do not give unnecessary lections, which I already know.

They know that their ancestors were converted.And they know it better than you and me or any other Serb.Trust me on that.They even know who was the first to convert and when and they celebrate him as a "founding father" of their new Muslim family and someone who "connected them with G-d through Islam".

I do not understand why you guys are being so difficult? Please think simply and logically. If ex-Serbs become aware of the fact that their ancestors were Orthodox Serbs, than the chance that they may return back to their original roots will increase.

As I said ,that view is very naive.I know that in Radical Party this idea is one of the main ideas considering dr Seselj's concept of "Serbian nationalism",but again- it's naive.They know who they are...for centuries they know it.If they didn't "come back" to its roots - changed their religious views till now,where you can find justification for the statement that they are going to do that tomorrow?
Evey traitor hates the most those who were betrayed,and the history teaches us so,especially here on the Balkans.You can see it also in the case of Nikolic and Vucic against Seselj.After the treason,very soon betrayed Seselj became the main target for newly created pro-EU party and not the Government as it was till yesterday.The same case is with islamised Serbs in Bosnia and you can't change it just like that.It's naive.

If these genetic Serbs of Turkey are aware of their Serbian heritage, than the claim of us, Orthodox Serbs, that Croatians and Bosniaks are assimilated Serbs will make more sense.

OK,and what with that?Suppose that a certain small number become aware of that(which I would like),what do we get in the case of "Bosniaks"?Nothing..."Serbian propaganda and lobby caught in the net some stupid Bosniaks in Turkey and made them believe in a lie to use them against us,real descenders of Bogumils",etc...You could here those things from Bosnian Muslims as always in order to defend themselves from the truth.

These people want to support our side and you are naively condemning them. This behavior is against Serbian interests!

I'm NOT condemning them!That's not the truth.But,I'm telling that it is not possible to reconvert someone who lives in a different country ,grown in that country,made its character and the way of thinking as it is common in the country's society just with presenting them tha facts that their ancestors were Serbs.We can't do almost anything with those who KNOW who they are ,HERE in Serbia or Bosnia,in our neighborhood,so you can't expect that islamised Serbs in middle of the Islamic Turkey are going to start to reconvert to Orthodoxy after who knows how many years in Islam.That's ridiculous.Don't be naive.

Of course,I welcome the fact that there are such a people who are aware of their background and are on our side,although I'm not very familiarized what that means in practical and political way considering their views on our problems.

With this behavior you will send those Serbs to members of the Bosniak lobby, which is supported by the US and EU.

Yes,that's true.That thing is important and let's say the only thing that matters.Because,as I previously said ,you can't expect from them to return to their roots in fully.Not religiously.And that's very important,because if those start to move to Serbia and start to have a kids,tomorrow we could face with large percentage of Muslim population in Serbia and a very big chance of creating another internal conflict which could again split the nation.And we had such a situations with current Serbian Muslims in Bosnia,so let's not make the mistake twice.

It surprises me that you people do not understand this. 
I see that as soon as you hear the word ''Muslim'' you start to loose your logic.
Your prejudices are making you guys sometimes blind.

I don't hate Muslims and that's not the case - starting loose my logic with the word "Muslim".But,you can't expect that majority of Serbs are going to rejoice if they think of the possibility that huge number of Muslims could come to Serbia.We do not live on Greenland and we are not Eskimos not to know what Muslim people can bring.We have a very painful history of meeting with Muslim nations,so I don't know what's so surprising to you.
I don't know how much are you aware of a certain teachings in Islamic concept,but they are not so good toward non-believers,Christians and Jews.Those certain teachings led to wars.

You also are not able to separate Bosnian Muslims from other Muslims.
Not every Muslim is a Bosnian Muslims or a Albanian.
You must think about that.
Your prejudices are making you very blind sometimes.

I don't hate any Serbian in Turkey,on the contrary.I'm really glad that they preserved the knowledge who they are and I'm even more glad if they want to help in the areas where they can do it.But,if they are not willing to fully return to its roots than I also like them but only in Turkey,not in Serbia.
And once again,if you think that majority of Serbs in Turkey are going to fully return to its roots,that's naive.That's not going to happen.Those islamised Serbs in Turkey who remained Serbian only by nationality should stay in Turkey and not removing to Serbia if they do not reject the conversion that the occupier did to them.Everything else except removing is acceptable for me.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Kerber

I agree with your last post! You said a lot of logic thinks!

It's true that converts are the most obsessed and greatest extremists.
Even among them you have exceptions.

Look at Western-Bosnia! The Muslim inhabits of Western-Bosnia cooperated with Radovan Karadzic, they were Serbian allies. They fought against Muslim extremists and did not attack Serbs. Do you know how much courage you must have to do something like that? They openly stoop up against the Bosnian Muslim Neo-Nazi regime of Sarajevo and were allies of Radovan Karadzic. Because of the Western-Bosnian Muslims the US and the EU can not claim that Radovan Karadzic attempted to exterminate Bosnian Muslims. Please think about that. The Muslims of Western-Bosnia, who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia, are the living prove that the Muslim separatists, who were supproted by the EU and US, destroyed a multyethnic society, Yugoslavia.

[voo-yo]

Kerber

I agree with your last post! You said a lot of logic thinks!

It's true that converts are the most obsessed and greatest extremists.
Even among them you have exceptions.

Look at Western-Bosnia! The Muslim inhabits of Western-Bosnia cooperated with Radovan Karadzic, they were Serbian allies. They fought against Muslim extremists and did not attack Serbs. Do you know how much courage you must have to do something like that? They openly stoop up against the Bosnian Muslim Neo-Nazi regime of Sarajevo and were allies of Radovan Karadzic. Because of the Western-Bosnian Muslims the US and the EU can not claim that Radovan Karadzic attempted to exterminate Bosnian Muslims. Please think about that. The Muslims of Western-Bosnia, who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia, are the living prove that the Muslim separatists, who were supproted by the EU and US, destroyed a multyethnic society, Yugoslavia.

What does this prove? That they wanted to be Serbs? Or just that they were surrounded by Serbs and had enough of the war? In any case, they were a huge minority and were beaten by Izetbegovic's army.
In present situation, I would agree to give such muslims a piece of Bosnia as their own state, but they still wouldn't be able to live in a Serbian state, and that's what Karadzic and Mladic also wanted to achieve.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

What does this prove? That they wanted to be Serbs?

What kind of question are you asking now brother?
It proves that they did not want to joint the anti-Serb coalition. You know that.

You know how many Orthodox-Serbs have been traitors to their own nation.
These ex-Serbs of Western-Bosnia can be an example to many so called Orthodo-Serb, traitors who spread US propaganda, accusing Radovan Karadzic for everything. 

So this proves my point.
Serbs who are born in the Orthodox religion can become traitors and evil.
Ex-Serbs who are raised as Muslims can be much better than so called Orthodox-Serbs, who are traitors.

For example who is better for the Serbs Fikret Abdic or Boris Tadic?
Answer is Fikret Abdic. But Fikret Abdic is Muslim, so you can not say that Muslim Serbs can not be good to Serbia. Fikret Abdic said during the war that so called Serbian concentration camps are Wester-media lies, while today many so called Orthodox Serbs claim that Radovan Karadzic tried to exterminate Muslims, what is a flagrant lies.

Fikret Abdic was raised as a Muslim, but he proved to be better for Serbia than many ''Orthodox Serbs''. So it is not true that Muslim Serbs can not be good for Serbia!

[voo-yo]

What does this prove? That they wanted to be Serbs?

What kind of question are you asking now brother?
It proves that they did not want to joint the anti-Serb coalition. You know that.

You know how many Orthodox-Serbs have been traitors to their own nation.
These ex-Serbs of Western-Bosnia can be an example to many so called Orthodo-Serb, traitors who spread US propaganda, accusing Radovan Karadzic for everything. 

So if this proves my point.
Serbs who are born in the Orthodox religion can become traitors and evil.
Ex-Serbs who are raised as Muslims can be much better than so called Orthodox-Serbs, who are traitors.

For example who is better for the Serbs Fikret Abdic or Boris Tadic?
Answer is Fikret Abdic. But Fikret Abdic is Muslim, so you can not say that Muslim Serbs can not be good to Serbia. Fikret Abdic said during the war the so called Serbian concentration camps are Wester-media lies, while today many so called Orthodox Serbs claim that Radovan Karadzic tried to exterminate Muslims, what is a flagrant lies.

Fikret Abdic was raised as a Muslim, but he proved to be better for Serbia than many ''Orthodox Serbs''. So it is not true that Muslim Serbs can not be good for Serbia!

This doesn't prove your point.
The fact of the matter is that they cannot be Serbs if they are muslims. I think they cannot even be friends of Serbs. Look at Cazinska Krajina now, they are against us as any other muslim in Bosnia.
I'll say it again, if they want to live with us, they must reject Islam. That's because the basic concept of Islam is in contradiction with our way of life, the Biblical truth. They mustn't be influenced by it.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Vojoo

That's nonsense!
You are really blind and you do not know what your are saying brother.

You claim that it is bad that Muslims of Fikret Abdic were pro-Serbian.
I told you something simple. It is a fact that Western-Bosnian Muslims had an alliance with Karadzic and fought against the Croatian-Muslim coalition.
You refuse to recognize that as something good. You do not want to recognize that assimilated Serbian Muslims of Western-Bosnia helped and supported Orthodox Serbs against other assimilated Serbs [Croats and Bosnian Muslims]? You are really unbelievable!

You are now talking about some hostile Muslims from Cazin, but you do not want to admit and recognize the fact that the majority of the Western-Bosnian Muslims was good and was pro-Serbian? Is it good that Muslims of Cazin are anti-Serb? No that is not good! Is it good that Abdic's Muslims are pro-Serbs. Yes that is good and you do not want to recognize that! That is not good of you!
How can you allow to be like that?

You are talking about Biblical truth? You are being a hypocrite now brother!

Lets take a look at the Bible: Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when all the while you yourself do not see the beam in your own eye? Vain pretender! take the beam out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.

You see you are not Biblical at all.
The Bible condemns your behavior.

[voo-yo]

Vojoo

That's nonsense!
You are really blind and you do not know what your are saying brother.

You claim that it is bad that Muslims of Fikret Abdic were pro-Serbian.
I told you something simple. It is a fact that Western-Bosnian Muslims had an alliance with Karadzic and fought against the Croatian-Muslim coalition.
You refuse to recognize that as something good. You do not want to recognize that assimilated Serbian Muslims of Western-Bosnia helped and supported Orthodox Serbs against other assimilated Serbs [Croats and Bosnian Muslims]? You are really unbelievable!

You are now talking about some hostile Muslims from Cazin, but you do not want to admit and recognize the fact that the majority of the Western-Bosnian Muslims was good and was pro-Serbian? Is it good that Muslims of Cazin are anti-Serb? No that is not good! Is it good that Abdic's Muslims are pro-Serbs. Yes that is good and you do not want to recognize that! That is not good of you!
How can you allow to be like that?

You are talking about Biblical truth? You are being a hypocrite now brother!

Lets take a look at the Bible: Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when all the while you yourself do not see the beam in your own eye? Vain pretender! take the beam out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.

You see you are not Biblical at all.
The Bible condemns your behavior.

How stubborn and stupid can you be? Talking to you is like talking to a tree.
And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

How stubborn and stupid can you be? Talking to you is like talking to a tree.
And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.

I do not think that  an Orthodox-Serb is able to use protestant interpretation of the bible 

You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind!  You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.

The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
Does this only count for brothers in faith, or for all man kind?
It refers to whole mankind, not only brothers in faith!
You are not allowed to kill or to lie against people who are not practising your faith!

An Orthodox Serb is not allowed to lie to anyone! You are not allowed to lie against Serbs, ex-Serbs, Jews, Blacks, Muslims or other people.  lying is a sin!
It does not matter to whom you are Lying! Lying is a sin!

So these commandments count not only for your own people, but also for other people. Orthodox Christianity is universal. It counts for everybody.

God does not separate people. All people are equal in Gods eyes!
Gods wants to save all people, yes even Muslims 

Please bother understand this.

[voo-yo]

How stubborn and stupid can you be? Talking to you is like talking to a tree.
And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.

I do not think that  an Orthodox-Serb is able to use protestant interpretation of the bible 

You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind!  You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.

The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
Does this only count for brothers in faith, or for all man kind?
It refers to whole mankind, not only brothers in faith!
You are not allowed to kill or to lie against people who are not practising your faith!

An Orthodox Serb is not allowed to lie to anyone! You are not allowed to lie against Serbs, ex-Serbs, Jews, Blacks, Muslims or other people.  lying is a sin!
It does not matter to whom you are Lying! Lying is a sin!

So these commandments count not only for your own people, but also for other people. Orthodox Christianity is universal. It counts for everybody.

G-d does not separate people. All people are equal in Gods eyes!
Gods wants to save all people, yes even Muslims 

Please bother understand this.

Whatever SRP. I don't have time to answer to all your ridiculous posts anymore. You've compromised yourself enough for everyone to see.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Your obsession with Muslims is very dangerous!
You even twist the Bible in order to justify your hate towards people who are not like you want them to be..

This is scary!

PS according to your way of thinking I am allow to kill all non-Serbs ? ? ?

[voo-yo]

You are dangerously close to fall into the category of troll.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

 

[Serbian Canadian]

You are dangerously close to fall into the category of troll.

Come now. There's no need for name calling.

[Spectator]

And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.

You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind!  You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.
...
The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
...

PS according to your way of thinking I am allow to kill all non-Serbs ? ? ?

SRP, why do you suppose Vujo says Bible allows to kill the non-Orthodox or lie to them? He only said "THAT VERSE from Bible refers to the brothers in faith", not "ALL the commandments are only for the Orthodox". I am a Jew and I am not going to judge what is right and what is wrong according to Orthodox Bible, but I think common human logic is not condemned by it.

[Spectator]

SRP, if Alija Izetbegovic and his supporters had started war with only weapons supply from Western powers (without political and military pressure on Serbia), what should Serbian leaders in Bosnia have done to them?