Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The heart of the matter, is it not?
Muck DeFuslims:
No, it is not the heart of the matter.
Your basic premise is founded on faulty logic.
Even if as you say, there are quadrillions of other beings and civilizations in the universe, in no way does that disprove or mitigate the validity of the Torah or of Judaism as a religion.
The Torah gives us an account of Creation and the origin of the universe. It gives us a set of laws and standards to live by.
It says nothing about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. It is mute on the question of whether other universes exist.
How you extrapolate this silence into a disbelief of what it does say is mystifying.
I can appreciate your reluctance to believe the Torah is divine. I can appreciate that you're probably an agnostic or maybe even an atheist. I honestly have no problem whatsoever with that.
I just don't see how the probability of life elsewhere in the universe disproves anything the Torah says about how the universe was created, or the legitimacy of Judaism as a religion.
rhodescholar:
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on November 12, 2009, 10:54:19 PM ---Even if as you say, there are quadrillions of other beings and civilizations in the universe, in no way does that disprove or mitigate the validity of the Torah or of Judaism as a religion.
--- End quote ---
How could it not? What if large numbers of those beings arrive, and prove that there is no being as "G-d" as we have perceived it through OUR religions?
Think of it this way, when native americans or other ancient, backwards cultures came into contact with earlier colonial europeans, they took their religion as a replacement for their own, because they easily were able to see how much more closely it followed reality.
Were we as humans, who given how short our existence has been, eventually encounter other species, many of whom will no doubt be far more advanced technologically, it is quite likely that they too will show us how incorrect in our beliefs we have been.
For the religion to simply mention, "there are alot of stars out there - and oh by the way, there are alot of beings living amongst them" is just too far a stretch for me to accept at this point.
I mean really, you can show a man waving his hand and the ocean separates, but telling him that those points of light in the sky are other planets would be too scary for ancient people?
--- Quote --- The Torah gives us an account of Creation and the origin of the universe. It gives us a set of laws and standards to live by.
--- End quote ---
Yes, in 6 days. which if true, the pc you are typing on could not exist, as the laws of physics would have to be eliminated entirely.
--- Quote --- It says nothing about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. It is mute on the question of whether other universes exist.
--- End quote ---
Was it because perhaps the human authors of the religion had no clue whatsoever about space?
--- Quote --- I just don't see how the probability of life elsewhere in the universe disproves anything the Torah says about how the universe was created, or the legitimacy of Judaism as a religion.
--- End quote ---
The points I made above address this...
Muck DeFuslims:
--- Quote from: rhodescholar on November 13, 2009, 11:17:58 AM ---
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on November 12, 2009, 10:54:19 PM ---Even if as you say, there are quadrillions of other beings and civilizations in the universe, in no way does that disprove or mitigate the validity of the Torah or of Judaism as a religion.
--- End quote ---
How could it not? What if large numbers of those beings arrive, and prove that there is no being as "G-d" as we have perceived it through OUR religions?
Think of it this way, when native americans or other ancient, backwards cultures came into contact with earlier colonial europeans, they took their religion as a replacement for their own, because they easily were able to see how much more closely it followed reality.
Were we as humans, who given how short our existence has been, eventually encounter other species, many of whom will no doubt be far more advanced technologically, it is quite likely that they too will show us how incorrect in our beliefs we have been.
For the religion to simply mention, "there are alot of stars out there - and oh by the way, there are alot of beings living amongst them" is just too far a stretch for me to accept at this point.
I mean really, you can show a man waving his hand and the ocean separates, but telling him that those points of light in the sky are other planets would be too scary for ancient people?
--- Quote --- The Torah gives us an account of Creation and the origin of the universe. It gives us a set of laws and standards to live by.
--- End quote ---
Yes, in 6 days. which if true, the pc you are typing on could not exist, as the laws of physics would have to be eliminated entirely.
--- Quote --- It says nothing about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. It is mute on the question of whether other universes exist.
--- End quote ---
Was it because perhaps the human authors of the religion had no clue whatsoever about space?
--- Quote --- I just don't see how the probability of life elsewhere in the universe disproves anything the Torah says about how the universe was created, or the legitimacy of Judaism as a religion.
--- End quote ---
The points I made above address this...
--- End quote ---
Sorry, basing the assumption that the Torah can not be Divine, that Judaism isn't legitimate, and that G-d probably doesn't exist, on the premise of aliens coming to Earth and revealing some other universal truth to humankind is not scientific thinking.
One could easily ask 'what if aliens came to Earth and confirmed the Biblical account of Creation as depicted in Genesis ?'.
'What if ?' is not a scientific observation. It is speculation.
Scientific observations are based on empirical evidence, not speculation.
Now of course, asking you to show this forum empirical evidence that G-d doesn't exist would be unfair. It's almost impossible to prove a 'negative' of this type. That is why I have absolutely no problem with you being an agnostic, atheist or whatever.
Belief in G-d and religion is based on faith. Obviously you don't incorporate faith in your belief system and choose instead to rely on what can be scientifically proven. Again, that is perfectly understandable.
But don't delude yourself into thinking that speculation about aliens arriving on Earth and proclaiming 'there is no G-d and the Torah is wrong' is scientific thinking. For it is not.
As far as the apparent contradiction between the Torah and science regarding the age of the universe ( 6 days of creation versus billions of years), that is a reasonable argument based on scientific evidence.
So the question would be 'is the Biblical account of creation and story of '6 days' of creation incompatible with modern scientific knowlege ?'
Surprisingly, the answer to this question is a resounding no.
If you're truly open minded and interested in how 6 days can be equivalent to billions of years, and why the scientific evidence showing the evolution of the universe from chaos to cosmos isn't incompatible with the account given in Genesis, I would refer you to the works of Dr. Gerald Schroeder.
He's an actual scientist, not merely someone who professes to think like a scientist. He's an MIT professor with a PHd in physics and molecular biology. He's also a devout Jew.
If you're interested, I will provide an audio link to a seminar he gave in Jerusalem regarding the age of the universe and Torah.
You might be very surprised by what you hear.
rhodescholar:
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on November 13, 2009, 11:59:58 AM ---I can't believe you are still basing your whole argument on "what if there are aliens". Out of all the arguments I've heard against G-d and Torah, that is actually one of the lamest. It's pathetic that you base your lack of faith on a different faith--aliens instead of G-d. You are at an unacceptable level in your spiritual journey. My advice to you is to get rid of the tin foil hat and put on a kipa.
--- End quote ---
You seem to be unable to expand your thinking and step up to the platform where I am standing; so let me repeat it yet again, in the most basic terms possible:
#1-there is NOTHING in judiasm referring to life on other planets - or even the existence of other planets whatsoever, this leads to my next point...
#2-if judaism is a religion that only exists here on earth, and we meet beings from other worlds who do not believe in religion or practice it, where does that leave judaism?
Especially if these other beings are infinitely more advanced, how could jews possibly be considered "guiding lights" to them?
The fundamental point here is that judaism is simply not applicable when you include the fact of billions of other sentient species, some vastly more advanced than ours.
muman613:
Where are these aliens? They are so sophisticated we cant see them? I dont believe in aliens...
I do believe in Hashem. I also know that everything which exists was created by Hashem, even any lifeforms on other planets. The entire physicality was created by Hashem and he has shown through public revelation his love for the Jewish people.
BTW, I dont think this kind of discussion should be in the Torah and Jewish idea section. It is denial of the truth of Torah to believe that anything in the entire creation was not created by the Holy One, blessed is he.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version