Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The heart of the matter, is it not?
HiWarp:
--- Quote from: rhodescholar on November 14, 2009, 11:01:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on November 13, 2009, 11:59:58 AM ---I can't believe you are still basing your whole argument on "what if there are aliens". Out of all the arguments I've heard against G-d and Torah, that is actually one of the lamest. It's pathetic that you base your lack of faith on a different faith--aliens instead of G-d. You are at an unacceptable level in your spiritual journey. My advice to you is to get rid of the tin foil hat and put on a kipa.
--- End quote ---
You seem to be unable to expand your thinking and step up to the platform where I am standing; so let me repeat it yet again, in the most basic terms possible:
#1-there is NOTHING in judiasm referring to life on other planets - or even the existence of other planets whatsoever, this leads to my next point...
#2-if judaism is a religion that only exists here on earth, and we meet beings from other worlds who do not believe in religion or practice it, where does that leave judaism?
Especially if these other beings are infinitely more advanced, how could jews possibly be considered "guiding lights" to them?
The fundamental point here is that judaism is simply not applicable when you include the fact of billions of other sentient species, some vastly more advanced than ours.
--- End quote ---
Suppose there are millions of aliens on other planets, and I don't doubt there is life on other worlds. And suppose that in a few hundred or thousand years we attain the technology to travel to other stars. And suppose that we encounter other life forms there but it turns out that we are the advanced aliens and they are comparatively primitive. Does this scenario actually prove that G-d exists and that Judaism is applicable?
cjd:
This is an interesting topic for debate however I honestly believe if life exists on other planets G-d in all his wisdom put it so far away it would be almost impossible to ever travel to. Mankind can't even get along with itself here on Earth how are we ever going to get along with creatures from other planets should such a thing exist.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: rhodescholar on November 12, 2009, 08:57:55 PM ---What I refer to, is the discovery and confirmation that the earth is the most insignificant of planets, and that the known Universe itself has some 100 trillion stars, with probably 100 times that number of inhabited planets.
--- End quote ---
Where? Where are these planets?
As to earth being the "most insignificant" who defines what is significant and what isn't? On the one hand, out of the KNOWN planets in our solar system, Earth is the only one known to have water and life on it, so a person could call that the most significant, but even if there WAS life on other planets, how does that contradict Judaism? The Torah was given to the Jews... On this planet. About how to live life on earth. Not on Planet X or a faraway galaxy. Even if those places exist, people still need instructions from God as to how to live a moral life on earth.
--- Quote ---If that is the case, much of what judaism and the other organized religions have taught simply falls apart,
--- End quote ---
How so?
--- Quote --- as it becomes obvious that the tenets of the religion are simply inapplicable when considering the nearly infinite (to a human mind) volume of sentient species out there.
--- End quote ---
Which tenet(s)? What exactly falls apart if there is life out in other planets? And where did they find all of these "species" ? Or are you making that up because a science fiction writer theorizes that they "might be" out there? I have not heard of this before.
--- Quote ---I would suspect that none of these species practice judaism, or any known religion to us, so the strictures that we jews are the chosen - chosen, amongst 1 quadrillion species? - ones, just becomes absurd.
--- End quote ---
Cows also do not practice Judaism. There are so many cows on earth. And so many elephants. Jews being "chosen" has nothing to do with our quantity, or relative to other animals. Ever read what the Torah actually says? You will see there, it is not about size or strength.
Devarim Ch. 7 verse 7-8
7. Not because you are more numerous than any people did the Lord delight in you and choose you, for you are the least of all the peoples.
8. But because of the Lord's love for you, and because He keeps the oath He swore to your forefathers, the Lord took you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.
Also verse 6 shows that this is talking about choosing from people on earth, not from other creatures.
6. For you are a holy people to the Lord, your God: the Lord your God has chosen you to be His treasured people, out of all the peoples upon the face of the earth.
quotes taken from chabad.org
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: rhodescholar on November 12, 2009, 09:22:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on November 12, 2009, 09:15:06 PM --- Those aren't facts. Facts are something that's proven. Those are just assumptions. Plus, the existence of "sentient species" anywhere does not have anything to do with the Jews' chosenness since they were only chosen PEOPLE to observe G-d's Torah and be a light to the nations. G-d has different paths for Jews and non-Jews, so if there are intelligent aliens he would probably have a different path for them too. None of this is grounds to stop practicing Judaism.
--- End quote ---
The laws of physics are quite sturdy, and the FACT that you can see billions of stars with an unaided eye from your front lawn - and that is only the Milky Way galaxy, which itself is one of BILLIONS of galaxies in the Universe - is pretty strong evidence to most people.
--- End quote ---
Since when are stars and galaxies sentient living beings?
Perhaps you don't really understand astrology. You should study these things before you speak about them, and certainly before you use related information to make lifechanging decisions.
--- Quote ---Again, there is no mention in judaism describing our existence - or really to be honest, insignificance - amongst quadrillions of other species.
--- End quote ---
What would be the point of saying so? That would only make people feel unimportant as if their actions don't matter. Judaism is coming to teach the exact opposite. Despite what you might think, despite that it might seem humans are insignificant (say compared to G-d, or in your case compared to billions of stars that so dazzle you), nonetheless, human behavior and the actions we do are of utmost importance and have a huge impact.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: rhodescholar on November 12, 2009, 10:19:48 PM ---Where in the torah does it mention that the earth is one of billions of planets, or anyone else in judaic literature?
--- End quote ---
Why does it have to? It's not a science textbook. It's not coming to teach you biology or other disciplines.
--- Quote ---How could a religion so founded in legitimacy fail to mention, that "oh by the way, you are one amongst billions"?
--- End quote ---
Because it's irrelevant, and we at that time and even now have no way of interacting with these supposed billions if they do actually exist. So of what use is it to know they are there. The Torah also didn't predict the rainfall estimates for the year 2004. Because it was not the intention of the Torah to tell you every possible fact that there is. A farmer's almanac teaches you about next year's estimated rainfall, and a physics book tells you about newton's theorems. The Torah is something different which is coming to teach you relevant facts and relevant behaviors to do G-d's will in the world and elevate yourself. It is teaching morality and insights into human nature (not hypothetical imaginary alien nature).
--- Quote ---Until you or someone else can show me how the religion is still applicable when the fact that the earth is a tiny, insignificant nothing, and that we as humans are far from alone -
--- End quote ---
There is no indication that this would be any reason to make religion less relevant or valuable.
Not only all of this, but in addition, I'm sure the kabalah does include for the possibilities of these other worlds. But that is neither here nor there. The fact is that none of this is relevant to Judaism. That earth is tiny does not make G-d less great or humans less important. We already knew that man was tiny. And that things on earth were like nothingness compared to G-d, even the most vast ocean, is nothing compared to Him. Judaism teaches that despite that obvious observation one could make, it is important what we do and don't do.
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