Opposition to animal korbonos

[wonga66]

One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed  korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews



We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm
 even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.

Now that would be a riot!

[Spectator]

According to Halacha, Jews are only permitted and obliged to bring offerings in the Temple. Since it is destroyed and not rebuilt yet, it is forbidden to bring offerings today.

It would not be any riot because people here understand that what you say has nothing to do with Jewish law and worldview.

[The One and Only Mo]

One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed  korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews



We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm
 even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.

Now that would be a riot!

Don't worry about it when Moshiach comes, alright?

[wonga66]

There are many different Moshiach scenarios. Which one of them will actually occur depends on us now!

There is a scenario of a seemingly natural, slowly enfolding over years Messianic Age, in which the Erev Rav and goyim will try to kill the Moshiach in the early days of his hisgalus: "...by dedicating the Third Temple, like his ancestor David, Messiah will suffer persecution at the hands of skeptics and scoffers, who will refuse to recognize his sovereignty and will scheme to assassinate him to destroy his monarchy..." (Artscroll, intro Tehillim 53)

And one reason for this could be their desire to prevent a return to the "Tanach  Era of sacrificial animal butchery". If the Rubashkin saga, PETA, Animal Rights and anti-shechitah movements are anything to go by, this desire will literally be ...to the death! 

[The One and Only Mo]

There are many different Moshiach scenarios. Which one of them will actually occur depends on us now!

There is a scenario of a seemingly natural, slowly enfolding over years Messianic Age, in which the Erev Rav and goyim will try to kill the Moshiach in the early days of his hisgalus: "...by dedicating the Third Temple, like his ancestor David, Messiah will suffer persecution at the hands of skeptics and scoffers, who will refuse to recognize his sovereignty and will scheme to assassinate him to destroy his monarch..." (Artscroll, intro Tehillim 53)

And one reason for this could be their desire to prevent a return to the "Tanach  Era of sacrificial animal butchery". If the Rubashkin saga, PETA, Animal Rights and anti-shechitah movements are anything to go by, this desire will literally be ...to the death! 

When Moshiach comes, nobody will question what we do.

[wonga66]

When Moshiach comes, nobody will question what we do.

So what is the War of Gog & Magog and the death of Moshiach ben Yosef in the early Messianic days all about then?! Eventually, those goyim and Jewish opponents who may survive, they won't question any more!

[The One and Only Mo]

When Moshiach comes, nobody will question what we do.

So what is the War of Gog & Magog and the death of Moshiach ben Yosef all about then?!

Okay. What I mean is, AFTER all the wars, and deaths,lol. Sorry, I wasn't more clear. Once it's all said and done, and we have the Beis Hamikdash again (today please G-d), and there is peace in the world, nobody will have any problems with how we serve Hashem.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed  korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews



We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm
 even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.

Now that would be a riot!

Once again you make a huge chillul hashem.  Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?

You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again.  You never fail at this.

[The One and Only Mo]

One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed  korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews



We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm
 even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.

Now that would be a riot!

Once again you make a huge chillul hashem.  Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?

You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again.  You never fail at this.

In her defense, I think she was showing how nuts those other people look and hoping that others don't think we (will) look like that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Once again you make a huge chillul hashem.  Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?

You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again.  You never fail at this.

In her defense, I think she was showing how nuts those other people look and hoping that others don't think we (will) look like that.

Oh come on, get real.    He put up that picture and referenced "massed korbonos."    Let's not be so naive about what this guy is doing here.   


And miflezet is a woman?

[The One and Only Mo]

Once again you make a huge chillul hashem.  Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?

You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again.  You never fail at this.

In her defense, I think she was showing how nuts those other people look and hoping that others don't think we (will) look like that.

Oh come on, get real.    He put up that picture and referenced "massed korbonos."    Let's not be so naive about what this guy is doing here.   


And miflezet is a woman?

I thought Wonga was a woman. Oh well. You came out a bit harsh when it's clear she probably doesn't have the same education as you are I. I think her comments, in general, are innocent.

[wonga66]

There is no comparison between the Torah's scientifically-proven painless shechitah method, and the painful methods of the gentiles in despatching animals.

But a change in the current world mindset, and even in our own, will have to take place for them to accept the sight of Jews cutting up droves of animals in the Name of Hashem and as an atonement for their chatoyim

 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There is no comparison between the Torah's scientifically-proven painless shechitah method, and the painful methods of the gentiles in despatching animals.

But a change in the current world mindset, and even in our own, will have to take place for them to accept the sight of Jews cutting up droves of animals in the Name of Hashem and as an atonement for their chatoyim

 

And as we can see this picture is much different than that camel jockey swinging a machete around wildly.  So why post something like that if not to make us look like savages?

[muman613]

The picture he posted is from the news story on FOX news today... I read this story there...

 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The picture he posted is from the news story on FOX news today... I read this story there...

 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews

And you don't find it inappropriate that he attached this Nepalese (translation: backward tribal savagery) machete swinging contest to Jewish korbonos?   This is an outrage.

[muman613]

The picture he posted is from the news story on FOX news today... I read this story there...

 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews

And you don't find it inappropriate that he attached this Nepalese (translation: backward tribal savagery) machete swinging contest to Jewish korbonos?   This is an outrage.

It does give the wrong impression but I am more patient with Wonga than most... I dont think it was done on purpose {I hope not}...

I do feel that this is an example of the resistance of the World to the idea of Korbanos... It is a sensitive topic even within the religious community. People love animals {me included} and will find it difficult to understand ritual slaughter of animals.

The way I cope with the concept is that there are animals dying every day... On my drive to work each day I must see at least four or five dead animals along the road.... I sometimes consider these road kill to be a form of sacrifice... When we see a sacrificial animal slaughtered we are supposed to feel fear and awe and make changes inside ourselves. This is the reason for Korbanos... Not to spill blood to feed a deity.

http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

Qorbanot

In ancient times, a major component of Jewish ritual was the offering of qorbanot. An entire order of the Talmud (Kodashim, that is, Holy Things) is devoted to the subject. More than 100 of the 613 Commandments as enumerated by Rambam specifically address issues related to qorbanot.

The word "qorbanot" is usually translated as "sacrifices" or "offerings"; however, both of these terms suggest a loss of something or a giving up of something, and although that is certainly a part of the ritual, that is not at all the literal meaning of the Hebrew word. The word qorbanot comes from the root Qof-Reish-Beit, which means "to draw near," and indicates the primary purpose of offerings: to draw us near to G-d.

Parts of the rituals involved in the offering of qorbanot were performed exclusively by the kohanim (priests). These rituals were only performed in the Temple in Jerusalem. The procedures could not be performed by anyone else, and could not be performed in any other place. Because the Temple no longer exists, we can no longer offer qorbanot.

There are three basic concepts underlying qorbanot: giving, substitution and coming closer.

The first the aspect of giving. A qorban requires the renunciation of something that belongs to the person making the offering. Thus, sacrifices are made from domestic animals, not wild animals (because wild animals do not belong to anyone). Likewise, offerings of food are ordinarily in the form of flour or meal, which requires substantial work to prepare.

Another important concept is the element of substitution. The idea is that the thing being offered is a substitute for the person making the offering, and the things that are done to the offering are things that should have been done to the person offering. The offering is in some sense "punished" in place of the offerer. It is interesting to note that whenever the subject of qorbanot is addressed in the Torah, the name of G-d used is the four-letter name indicating G-d's mercy.

The third important concept is the idea coming closer. The essence of sacrifice is to bring a person closer to G-d.
Purposes of Qorbanot

Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of qorbanot is not simply to obtain forgiveness from sin. Although many qorbanot have the effect of expiating sins, there are many other purposes for bringing qorbanot, and the expiatory effect is often incidental, and is subject to significant limitations.

The purposes of qorbanot are much the same as the purposes of prayer: we bring qorbanot to praise G-d, to become closer to Him, to express thanks to G-d, love or gratitude. We bring qorbanot to celebrate holidays and festivals. Others are used to cleanse a person of ritual impurity (which does not necessarily have anything to do with sin: childbirth causes such impurity, but is certainly not a sin). And yes, many qorbanot, like many prayers, are brought for purposes of atonement.

The atoning aspect of qorbanot is limited. For the most part, qorbanot only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, qorbanot cannot atone for a malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, qorbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, after a while patience wears thin.  This guy has an unfortunate "habit" at this website.   

[The One and Only Mo]

Muman, after a while patience wears thin.  This guy has an unfortunate "habit" at this website.   

Let's give another (Yid) the benefit of the doubt?

[wonga66]

As much as the average goy/Jewish liberal is outraged at the Nepalese, how much more so will they go berserk at Jewish Cohanim shechting thousands upon thousands of sheep, bulls and goats in the Third Temple, as per Yechezkel 40-47.

The "modern" mindset will NEVER reconcile itself, even with a compulsory  Torah/Noahide reeducation, to a return to a return to sacrificing anmials to the Deity.

Which is why most goyim/liberal Jews will not be around in Third Temple times!
http://www.templeinstitute.org/sacrificial_service.htm

[The One and Only Mo]

As much as the average goy/ Jewish liberal is outraged at the Nepalese, how much more so will they go berserk at Jewish Cohanim shechting thousands upon thousands of sheep, bulls and goats in the Third Temple, as per Yechezkel 40-47.

The "modern" mindset will NEVER reconcile itself, even with a Torah/Noahide reeducation, to a return to a return to sacrificing anmials to the Deity. Which is why most goyim/Liberal Jews will not be around in Third Temple times!

You have to understand something. THAT WON'T HAPPEN. Why? Because Jews will be dominant in the world. Nobody will question anything that Jews do. You have to get today out of your head when you talk about when we have the temple. What we do will be the norm.

[The One and Only Mo]

As much as the average goy/Jewish liberal is outraged at the Nepalese, how much more so will they go berserk at Jewish Cohanim shechting thousands upon thousands of sheep, bulls and goats in the Third Temple, as per Yechezkel 40-47.

The "modern" mindset will NEVER reconcile itself, even with a compulsory  Torah/Noahide reeducation, to a return to a return to sacrificing anmials to the Deity.

Which is why most goyim/liberal Jews will not be around in Third Temple times!

Please remember that the "modern" mind-set we have now in the goyish world will be like the stone-age when Moshaich comes. Everything will be based on Hashem and the Torah when we have our temple.

[wonga66]

Please remember that the "modern" mind-set we have now in the goyish world will be like the stone-age when Moshaich comes.

There never was a "stone-age". This is an evolutionary myth. Mankind was never primitive.

And the ancients were much more spiritually aware than us. On the contrary, there has been a spiritual devolution. All of mankind used to offer up living sacrifices to their deities. The Midrash says that Yishmael was criticized for only offering up locusts to Hashem!

The Aztecs and Incas even went to the extent of human sacrifices, which is an abomination and forbidden: but it showed they really believed in something!

Only Judaism has preserved the true way in the sacrificial procedure to the True Deity.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Please remember that the "modern" mind-set we have now in the goyish world will be like the stone-age when Moshaich comes.

There never was a "stone-age". This is an evolutionary myth.

LOL.  Ludicrous.

The stone age was when man built things primarily out of stone.   What's so difficult about accepting that that took place?   Why must one deny historical fact?

[wonga66]

"Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron." (Breishis 4:22).

Men knew how to metal-work already from the beginning, and that beginning was only a few thousand years ago. There never was a "Stone Age". Evolutionists desperately want to push that beginning back 100s of 1000s, if not millions of years ago.

But the Torah & true scientific evidence contradict them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron." (Breishis 4:22).

Men knew how to metal-work already from the beginning, and that beginning was only a few thousand years ago. There never was a "Stone Age". Evolutionists desperately want to push that beginning back 100s of 1000s, if not millions of years ago.

But the Torah & true scientific evidence contradict them.

LOL.  And you can date Tubal-Cain from Jewish sources?   Please.    Stop living in denial of plain fact.   It doesn't even make sense that man "knew metal-work" from the beginning...   Did he know metal work before God put in the neshama?   If man was always the same, what changed when he got a neshama?   

And why has science and technology improved so much, even in the past 100 years?   Man always knew how to build computers since the beginning of time, we just chose not to?     Please do not be ridiculous, you make religious Jews look like morons.   It may be that mankind's MORALITY was better in the past - certainly it peaked with the revelation at Sinai and has fallen ever since.   But to claim that man's SCIENCE was better in the past is something only an ignorant fool could claim.    As science/technology gets better, morality/ethics decline... Both happen as history moves forward.    As my rabbi explained in shiur, Rav Soloveitchik described that it's a dichotomy of ethics and ontology and that in the end of time they will actually fuse together as one... but currently they are disparate and may become more and more disparate as time goes on.... until the very end (Messianic era) where they will somehow coincide.