Author Topic: Earth at the Center of the Universe  (Read 42352 times)

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Offline Mifletzet

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Earth at the Center of the Universe
« on: April 25, 2007, 04:47:44 AM »
The Earth was the first physical object created.

And Rambam says that the Earth is at the center of the universe.

According to Relativity, this is totally acceptable, not just figuratively, but physically too.

"It is my firm belief that the Sun revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science." (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

And even according to those who don't hold by Relativity, and who believe in the existence of the Aether, they are pushed to explain the zero-velocity result of the famous Michelson-Morley experiment.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 05:16:31 AM by Mifletzet »

Offline WestCoastJTF

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 12:33:33 PM »
"It is my firm belief that the Sun revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science." (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

The Sun does not revolve around the Earth ;)




Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 03:13:20 PM »
By Relativity, to say that the Sun orbits the Earth is a fully equally valid scientific model!

If you can disprove Relativity, you get a Nobel Prize!

“We know that the difference between a heliocentric theory and a geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that such a difference has no physical significance.

If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw, out of physical and mathematical necessity" (Sir Fred Hoyle).

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 04:18:59 PM »
I don't care what any of you say...

The entire Universe revolves around me!

Now, if you will please excuse me, I have to go hang a new mirror which I just purchased.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 04:30:11 PM »
"It is my firm belief that the Sun revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science." (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

The Sun does not revolve around the Earth ;)


I agree with westcoastJTF.  It is funny that those who don't know anything about relativity are making crazy claims that the sun revolves around the earth based on relativity (relativity is about curved space time and has nothing to do with the claim brought up).  Fact: It was proven hundreds of years ago that the earth revolves around the sun.  It is true sadly that there were a few Rabbis in modern times who thought that the sun rotated around the earth but these were the small minority (probably 1% or less).

Also wasn't the Aether concept disproven at the beginning of the 20th century?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 04:51:05 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 06:37:48 PM »
Einstein's disciple Lincoln Barnett stated:

"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor has any experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion".

And Albert Einstein himself stated:

"The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless.  Either CS could be used with equal justification.  The two sentences, "the sun is at rest and the earth moves," or "the sun moves and the earth is at rest," would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS.  Could we build a real relativistic physics valid in all CS; a physics in which there would be no place for absolute, but only for relative motion?  This is indeed possible!".

Even the arch-atheist Bertrand Russell stated:

"Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors held, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same: a metaphysical assumption has to be made".

The simplest explanation for the zero-velocity result of the Michelson-Morley's experiment failure to detect the Earth's purported 67,000 mph velocity round the Sun is that the Earth really is stationary wrt the Aether.

So Einstein did away with the Aether and invented Relativity.

But Relativity is by definition obliged to accept geocentricity as a primus inter pares, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe stated www.yiddishkeit.org

Recent discoveries such as the 376 ohm impedance of "free" vacuum space and in quantum physics, mean that the Aether theory is back in vogue.

Either way, the Torah, Nach and Chazal's message of a stationary geocentric Earth has not been disproven.
http://galileowaswrong.com
http://www.geocentricity.com
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 06:56:12 PM by Mifletzet »

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 07:03:52 PM »
Firstly, the Torah and Navi do not say that the earth is the center of the universe.  It does not talk about this subject at all.  Secondly, I am warning you for your own good (not as an insult) that you are following the evil path since you are

1.  Adding to the Torah things which are not there which is one of the biggest sins. 
2.  Not considering that the Talmud even says that the Rabbis admitted to the Greeks after lengthy arguing that the Earth revolves around the sun. 
3.  Thinking that Rabbis are infallible in science which is incorrect since they were not experts in Science but were experts in the Torah. 
4.   You are completely lacking any rational thought.  Just like it is impossible to understand the Torah without learning it first, you can not state any scientific concept that you did not study.  Just like concepts must be derived from the Torah logically using the logical precepts of Rebbe Yismael, in the real world if things are proven then they are correct.  And what you have stated has been PROVEN wrong countless times since hundreds of years ago.  You did not study science at all but your "Rabbis" have told you that what the Lubovitcher Rebbe said must be correct so you went around the internet searching for any complementary evidence on a website written by a three year old even though you have nothing except a few esoteric quotes from unknown scientists. 

Firstly, a few hundred years ago it was proven that the earth is spinning.  The experiment done was the pendulum experiment.  A large pendulum was hung on a beach with a needle at the bottom of the pendulum so as it swung it made a line in the sand.  If the earth did not spin or move then the line should not change but you will have a single straight line.  However, if the earth moved then the line would gradually change and you will have a circular pattern over 24 hours.  Guess what happened?  A circle was made.  So it is a fact that the earth is spinning. 

Again, relativity states that space time is curved and therefore there is no perfectly straight line in the universe and the Aether thing is not accepted anymore, it is outdated and disproven.  And none of these things have anything to do with fact that the Earth revolves around the sun; even the disproven Aether concept (the scientists who made this up didn't even think that the earth is the center of the universe).  Every scientist agrees to this, including the ones you misquote above.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:08:14 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2007, 09:58:02 PM »
The Earth was the first physical object created.

The Sun, Moon and stars were only created on the Fourth Day, to serve a pre-existing Earth.

Does it seem reasonable that the Earth, the focus of Hashem's attention, would be set spinning on the Fourth Day round an insignificant star, in a minor galaxy at the edge of the universe?

"The Earth is called ארץ from the running of the of the orbiting spheres which circle around it" (Radak Breishis 1:1).

The Tenach speaks only of the Earth's fixity. Nowhere does it attribute any diurnal or annual motion to the Earth.

Hashem writes what He means and means what He writes. When Yehoshua commanded the Sun and Moon to stand still, he did not say "Earth, stop your rotation". Hashem would not allow an error to be propagated down the centuries.

Mach's Principle shows that a universe going round the Earth every 24 hours will produce exactly the same Foucault's Pendulum, Coriolis forces, earth bulge, weather patterns etc  effects as an Earth rotating in its axis every 24 hours.

Einstein taught that there is a force inside a sphere of matter that is in motion. He wrote plainly to Ernst Mach on June 25, 1913:

 "If one accelerates a heavy shell of matter S, then a mass enclosed by that shell experiences an accelerative force. If one rotates the shell relative to the fixed stars about an axis going through its center, a Coriolis force arises in the interior of the shell, that is, the plane of a Foucault pendulum is dragged around."  ie that according to Relativity, Foucault's Pendulum can not be used as proof of a rotating Earth!

Rabbi Kahane was a geocentrist, as was the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Maharal
Ma’aseh Tuviyah, Mateh Dan, R.Yonoson Eibeshutz, Ba’al HaTanya, R.Nachman of Breslov, Sefer Habris etc

All were familiar with the theory of Copernicus, yet rejected it in favour of the geocentricity of the Tenach and Chazal.

And since the geocentric paradigm is fully compatible with modern scientific thinking, why be hostile to it? There are numerous articles in the "B'or HaTorah" http://www.borhatorah.org
Torah & science journals on this subject.

NASA use the geocentric model for their launches. The Barr Effect, Varshni's Result, Michelson- Morley Zero Velocity Result, Airy's Failure, Star Streaming, Walls of galaxies centered on the Earth, uniformity of the microwave background etc are just some of the geocentric evidences.

"The earth is indeed the center of the universe. The distribution of quasars (powerful radio sources) in vast concentric shells distributed equally about the earth means that the Cosmological Principle (that any point in the universe is the same as any other - acentrism) will have to go. A coordinate system fixed to the earth is the preferred frame of reference in the universe; consequently both the Special and General Theory of Relativity must be abandoned for Cosmological purposes" (Astrophysics and Space Science no.43).

"The Earth is suspended at center of the universe” (Rambam, Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).



« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 10:04:20 PM by Mifletzet »

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 10:22:43 PM »
Firstly, your "biblical proofs" from Genesis are no proof arn are only based on your own interpuitation and the one from the Prophets is not credible.  Had there been no scientific proof that the earth goes around the sun, then it would be a valid interpuitation as the other interpuitations that state that the Earth goes around the sun.  But science has proven that the later is correct so your interpuitation is no longer valid.  There are dozens of possible interpuitations of the genesis account since it is written very vague and you basically can't prove anything from them.  Only science can prove what interpuitation of Genesis is correct. 

The first verse of the bible according to Rashi is a summary of the events of creation and is not to be taken literally that first earth was created.  Also, the hebrew word Aretz can refer to the Earth or the entire universe.  Heavens can refer to Olam Habah or it can refer to the atmosphere or it can refer to space. The Bible is unclear what these mean.  Also the verses that state that the sun moon and the stars were created on the fourth day seem to imply to you that the earth was created before them but this is not the only way to read the Bible.  Another interpuitation is that the sun, moon and stars were around first but they were only visible from the earth on the fourth day and hence their purpose were completed on that day since the bible goes out of its way to tell us that the sun and the moon separate day from night and make times and seasons.  Since that was their purpose, their creation was completed when they were visible from the Earth. In fact, Rashi says that according to the Sages everything was created the first day and simply set into place later which is consistant with the big bang theory and the Zohar writes an account very similar to the big bang theory by saying creation started from a tiny speck.  Plus my Rabbi told me the Talmud states that the Rabbis admitted to the Greeks that the earth moves around the sun.

Again, it was already proven that the earth goes around the sun and the earth rotates.  You told me that if the earth rotates, it is still possible for the sun to rotate around the earth and it would still arotate experimentally.  That is true, but you forget that it was proven in a separate experiment based on Astronomy that the Earth rotates around the Sun!  Also all these scientific concepts you quote are misquoted since not one of these scientists believe the sun rotates around the earth and not one of these scientific models state that the Earth is the center of the universe.  These claims are stated by people who have no clue about these theories to begin with so start saying nonsense. 

Rabbi Meir Kahane didn't think the Sun goes around the Earth either and I wouldn't trust your sources which have a tendency to lie about everything.  I had a lecture from one of these so called "Yeshivish experts" that tried to disprove evolution and sound all smart.  Well, to someone who knew any science at all, the guy was an idiot since he didn't even know what evolution was!  He thought that evolution was an old disproven theory that the Gerafe developed by stretching their necks out the eat branches and their necks stretched over time.  Guess what, that is not evolution, it was an older theory that the scientists disproved a long time ago! 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 10:43:52 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Maccabi

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2007, 10:39:29 PM »
I heard somewhere in the Torah or Talmud that it predicted the number of stars in the universe as 1 followed by 18 zeroes.

and that this was about the number arrived at by modern scientists.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 10:45:16 PM »
I heard somewhere in the Torah or Talmud that it predicted the number of stars in the universe as 1 followed by 18 zeroes.

and that this was about the number arrived at by modern scientists.

Does anyone know if this is true?
I never heard of this.  If you find the source, please tell me.  I also want to know the location of the Gemara that says the Rabbis admitted to the Greek scientists that the Earth goes around the Sun.   
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 10:52:40 PM »
The discussion in the Talmud Pesachim 94 between the Chachomim and the gentiles is on another subject entirely, and not connected with geocentrism.

The שיטה מקובצת there states: דאעג"ב דנצחו חכמי אה"ע לחכמי ישראל היינו נצחון בטענת אבל האמת היא כחכמי ישראל והיינו דאמרינן בתפילה ובוקע חלוני רקיע


The Greeks, like Chazal and everyone else until Nikolas Copernicus (whom the Ma'aseh Tuviyah called the B'chor Soton!), held by geocentrism.

Check out "Geocentrism" by Dr Avi Rabinowitz B'Or HaTorah 5,
"Torah Metaphysics versus Newtonian Empiricism", Rabbi Shimon Cowen, B'Or Hatorah 1999, and “Relativity and Geocentrism” in “Mind over Matter - the Lubavitcher Rebbe on Science, Technology and Medicine” 2003.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 10:58:26 PM by Mifletzet »

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 10:55:54 PM »
Well, thank you for the possible source.  I wouldn't rely on the one commentator that does not take the logical simple meaning of the Talmud since he was disproven! (Note Rashi and Tosvot always go with the simple meaning)   
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 11:15:47 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2007, 11:00:59 PM »
As much as I respect and like the Lubovitcher Rebbe, he made the same mistake that most Chassidim do.  Chassidim are good people but have always had issues with accepting Science.  I asked a Chassidish Rebbe about this and  he said that all Science is heresy and he called me a heretic.  If the Mishna and Talmud accepted science as key to the Torah I don't get why they are so backward on this.  And having people rationalize by making up far fetched lies that science can still support disproven concepts does not count as science since if they really wanted the truth they would discover that this is all nonsense and lies (the theories they quote don't talk about what they claim they do and they take quotes out of context).  As I said before, the Yeshivot hire people to lecture outright lies to Yeshiva kids who don't know any better since they never studied science on a college level and brainwash them with nonsense.  Plus they do not allow debate like the Torah demands us to do.  If any Jewish religious scientist would debate any of these people they would win but they don't do this since they want to continue speaking lies and brainwashing people.  Interesting though, that when it comes to saving their lives, they get over this and they always go to the best hospital with the best doctor. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 11:13:53 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Fruit of thy loins

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 09:33:53 AM »
Judaism never said The Sun went around The Sun or that The Earth was flat. And The Kabbalah supports The Universe being billions of years old. Each day of Creation represents a different World. We are currently in The Sixth World. At the end of 6,000 year World, there is a period of 1,000 years of Shabbat. But of course the 6,000 years weren't literal. At the end of this World, we will have another 1,000 years followed by eternal Shabbat in The Seventh World.




That is a beautiful explanation.
Every white woman deserves the black man of her dreams.  But what does every white man deserve?

Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2007, 11:53:14 AM »
“Those well meaning persons who felt impelled to interpret certain passages in the Torah differently from the time-honoured tradition, did so only in the mistaken belief that the Torah view on the age of the world was at variance with science; otherwise they would not have sought new interpretations in the Torah….there is no need to seek new reinterpretations in the Torah to 'reconcile' them with science” (Lubavitcher Rebbe).

In Chassidus, references to previous worlds and their destruction and ages are taken to be referring to the non-corporeal Olam HaTohu and the act of the sheviras hakeilim.

Most Haredi Jews take the year 5767 preceded by six 24 hour days, with the physical universe due to terminate by 6000, literally.

And there is solid scientific evidence for this view.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 11:57:05 AM by Mifletzet »

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2007, 02:14:43 PM »
Firstly, you make me laugh since you accuse others of not adhering to the time honored explanation of the Torah when it is you who is not adhering to it as the Talmud states that the Rabbis admitted to the Greek's point of view that the Earth goes around the sun.  The Rabbis in the Talmud who were the holiest Rabbis used science to prove and disprove Torah interpuitations and the Rebbe can't argue with the Talmud.  I'm the one sticking to the traditional explanation of the Talmud where you have to find a Chassidish far fetched lone interpuitation who says that the Talmud really meaned the opposite.  Also the Mishna Pirkai Avot says that Science is a spice to the Torah.  And you fail to take into account that there is many interpuitations of the Genesis account and science can disprove a traditional account in favor of another account. 

Secondly, you constantly say that Science supports your point of view when it does not.  Everything you say is contrary to Science as NO scientist still thinks the earth is the center of the universe.  No respectable scientist thinks the earth is 6000 years old.  Thirdly, the Bible clearly implies that the Genesis account does not mean 24 hour days, since the Torah menchans that there was morning and evening and days before the Sun and Moon were created and day,night, seasons and times even existed so it is obvious it does not refer to 24 hour days since it is impossible to have a 24 hour day if day and night did not exist yet as the Torah says on the fourth day "G-d said let there be lights in the empty space of heaven to divide between day and night".   So obviously, the days refer to days from G-d's point of view which is actually billions of years.  This was also proven scientifically in many ways.  The fact that you can see a star millions of light years away means that the light took millions of light years to travel to Earth. Had the earth been only 6,000 years old, we not be able to see most of the stars in the sky via a good telescope since the light from stars millions of light years away would not have reached earth yet.

Does the Rebbe think that he was better than the Talmud Rashi and the Rambam?  Do you think it is OK to accuse others of misinterpeting the Torah when the simple meaning of the Torah as well as the ancient commentaries agree with them but you have to resort to new commentaries that blatantly argue with the old ones?  You are the one who is misinterpeting the Torah and even worse is that you are lying about it.  At least admit that Science does not support you at all and simply call Science Heresy like one Chassidish Rabbi I met instead of lying.  At least you are being honest if you do that instead of trying to deceive people. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 02:38:40 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2007, 05:55:29 PM »
You seem to be under the misconception that the discussion in Pesachim 94 was about geocentrism, which it isn't!

It is a discussion on whether the galgalim move and the stars are stationary, or vice versa.
http://www.dafyomi.org/index.php?masechta=pesachim&daf=94b&go=Go

Until Copernicus, everyone held by geocentrism.

Since Rav Kahane, his son Binyamin Zeev, and Chaim too, hold by a literal 6000 year geocentric universe, which is fully supported by Torah, Nach, Chazal and science, your outlook needs some correction!

But many like you have trouble reconciling current science with Torah, even to the point of having a crisis in emunah, as the recent Slifkin Affair showed.

For those, the intermediate approach of Professor Gerald Schroeder is useful http://www.geraldschroeder.com/

He shows how by Einstein the universe can be both 6000 and 16 billion years old, and both heliocentric, acentric and geocentric, all at the same time, so everyone's happy!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 07:03:33 PM by Mifletzet »

Offline Lubab

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2007, 02:25:28 AM »
Firstly, you make me laugh since you accuse others of not adhering to the time honored explanation of the Torah when it is you who is not adhering to it as the Talmud states that the Rabbis admitted to the Greek's point of view that the Earth goes around the sun.  The Rabbis in the Talmud who were the holiest Rabbis used science to prove and disprove Torah interpuitations and the Rebbe can't argue with the Talmud.  I'm the one sticking to the traditional explanation of the Talmud where you have to find a Chassidish far fetched lone interpuitation who says that the Talmud really meaned the opposite.  Also the Mishna Pirkai Avot says that Science is a spice to the Torah.  And you fail to take into account that there is many interpuitations of the Genesis account and science can disprove a
traditional account in favor of another account. 

Secondly, you constantly say that Science supports your point of view when it does not.  Everything you say is contrary to Science as NO scientist still thinks the earth is the center of the universe.  No respectable scientist thinks the earth is 6000 years old.  Thirdly, the Bible clearly implies that the Genesis account does not mean 24 hour days, since the Torah menchans that there was morning and evening and days before the Sun and Moon were created and day,night, seasons and times even existed so it is obvious it does not refer to 24 hour days since it is impossible to have a 24 hour day if day and night did not exist yet as the Torah says on the fourth day "G-d said let there be lights in the empty space of heaven to divide between day and night".   So obviously, the days refer to days from G-d's point of view which is actually billions of years.  This was also proven scientifically in many ways.  The fact that you can see a star millions of light years away means that the light took millions of light years to travel to Earth. Had the earth been only 6,000 years old, we not be able to see most of the stars in the sky via a good telescope since the light from stars millions of light years away would not have reached earth yet.

Does the Rebbe think that he was better than the Talmud Rashi and the Rambam?  Do you think it is OK to accuse others of misinterpeting the Torah when the simple meaning of the Torah as well as the ancient commentaries agree with them but you have to resort to new commentaries that blatantly argue with the old ones?  You are the one who is misinterpeting the Torah and even worse is that you are lying about it.  At least admit that Science does not support you at all and simply call Science Heresy like one Chassidish Rabbi I met instead of lying.  At least you are being honest if you do that instead of trying to deceive people. 

If you're on the earth, it looks like the sun is going around you. If you're on the sun, it would look like the earth is going around you.
In space, where we don't know where it ends and therefore cannot locate a particular "center", how can you logically prove which perspective is "correct"? Wouldn't it all depend on where you place you're point of reference?

I think either view is equally plausible and the Rabbis spoke about Earth being the point of reference because this is the place where the Torah was given and we have our mission...and the rest is like a backdrop and we're the stars of the show. It's just a matter of perspective.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2007, 02:46:07 AM »
Well, it may "look" like everything is going around us but that is not true.  It was proven that we rotate around the sun as does all the planets in our solar system.  A long time ago, they tracked the movment and changes in the appearance of the size of the planets for years and found that they in fact do go around the sun as do we.  The Rabbis in the Talmud admitted to this and yes, saying that the stars are stationary and we move is another way of saying that the earth moves and is not the center of the universe. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 02:22:12 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Mifletzet

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2007, 04:53:40 AM »
By Einstein, it is not posssible to prove, from within the universe, what is going round what.

To do so, one would have to go outside the universe, observe from there, and report back!

Hoyle points out that the Earth does not, technically, revolve around the Sun, but rather, the Earth and Sun both revolve around the center of mass of the Earth-Sun system, which is quite a few miles from the Sun's central axis (though still well inside the Sun).

Hoyle points out that one must factor in all objects, starting with the nearest stars, to recalculate the true center-of-mass of the earth-sun-universe. Hoyle speculates that once one has properly applied the barycentric argument to all other entities in the universe (known as "widening the view angle of one's telescope to avoid self- serving tunnel vision"), the center-of-mass may easily be at the Earth's location, making it impossible to disprove the geocentric hypothesis.

Hoyle says the barycentric argument is only properly applied when every object in the universe has been factored into the center-of-mass calculation, a calculation that has never been done. He believes that consistent application of the barycentric argument, layer by layer, places the center- of-mass farther away from the Sun and closer to the Earth and concludes that the barycentric argument can easily and fully support pure geocentricity: "The Earth is suspended at the center of the universe" (Rambam, Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).

Offline Sarah

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2007, 10:17:58 AM »
I heard that Solar Systems revolve around other stars. So the whole Solar System including The Sun move around the galaxy. Probably galaxies also go around each other.



That seems to be the most logical of explanations merely from the fact that when a star dies it collapses inwards forming a black hole or a neutron star that is tremendously dense and sucks in everything surrounding due to its high gravtitational pull. Since the sun is the biggest star closest to earth it is probably pulling all our planets to revolve around it and that is so for other galaxies. However jdl4ever i strongly agree with you that it could merely be an illusion .............we will never fully be able to understand the universe due to our limitations of knowledge. Our bodies are made of destructable flesh and if confused by simple things who knows what we are seeing is not just an illusion.

Light in general alters how we see things and how things may positionally be.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2007, 11:42:51 PM »
Re:  "...At the end of 6,000 year World, there is a period of 1,000 years of Shabbat..."

If it keeps up like that, we'll soon be in arbitration with the Shabbos Goys' Union over wages & benefits!

Offline Lubab

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2007, 01:41:11 AM »
I found this letter by the Lubavitcher Rebbe on this topic with the accompanying story preceeding it. It confirms what I was thinking above and what Mitzlefet was saying. If someone really wants to get to the bottom of this, take this letter to someone who really knows about the theory of relativity and see if he can confirm what the Rebbe is saying here. The Rebbe bascially challenges you to do this here.

 The Wager

In the summer of 1975, an encounter took place between Rabbi F.R., a Lubavitcher chassid, and Mr. A.P., a "modernized" American Jew. Rabbi R. was seeking to influence Mr. P. toward a greater commitment to Torah observance, which the latter dismissed as "archaic" and dismally outdated. In the course of the conversation, Mr. P. said, "Are you telling me that every law and practice mentioned in the Torah, written thousands of years ago, must be accepted at face value today?" "Certainly,” replied Rabbi R. "The Torah is eternal, and is equally pertinent to every day and age." "The Torah states that the sun revolves around the earth," countered Mr. P. "Do you believe that as well?" "Yes, I do," replied Rabbi R. "Well, you might believe that," said Mr. P., "but no rational, self-respecting inhabitant of the 20th century does. I’m sure your rebbe, Rabbi Schneerson, doesn’t!" "I’m sure he does," said the rabbi. "I’m willing to wager anything that he does not," said Mr. P. "In fact, I’ll say this: If the Rebbe states that he believes that the sun revolves around the earth, I will become a Torah-observant Jew and convince everyone I know to do the same!" "Would you put that in writing?" challenged Rabbi R. "No problem," said Mr. P.

Soon after, Rabbi R. received the following letter:

Dear Rabbi R____

As per our conversation of today... I did say to you, and am submitting the same in writing by means of this letter, that if the Rebbe would make a public statement to the effect that... since the Talmud states that the sun revolves around the earth, it is therefore his firm belief that the sun does indeed revolve around the earth, that I will:

(a) personally observe the laws of taharat hamishpachah, tefillin and Shabbat; and

(b) influence my friends and colleagues to do the same.

It is, however, more than obvious to me that the Rebbe will not, in any way, make such a ridiculous statement, because

(a) he does not wish to be labeled as a fool,

(b) he himself is not as foolish as some of his ardent but hypnotized followers.

I predict, with no hesitation, that I will not hear any more about this matter from you or from the Rebbe...

I must tell you that I feel a deep personal hurt when people such as you make such asinine, ridiculous statements and then hide your abysmal ignorance behind the facade of "Torah." Don’t you realize you can still be believers and not live 500 years behind the times?

Mr. P. received not one but two separate letters in reply from the Rebbe, plus a third, cover letter, which read as follows:

Greetings and blessings!

Your letter, addressed to Rabbi F____ R____, reached me ... In view of its content, I naturally take this first opportunity of replying to it.

Not knowing whether you are more interested in the practical implication, or/and in the scientific aspect, I am writing two separate replies, enclosed herewith, which you can read in the order you prefer.

With esteem and blessing,

M. Schneerson

P.S. It is surely unnecessary to add-though I am adding it for the record-that I take for granted that you will keep your commitments with regard to the practical aspects of your letter.

One letter read:

... In reply to your question relating to the matter of the motion of the sun and the earth, whether the sun revolves around the earth or the earth around the sun,

It is my firm belief that the sun revolves around the earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science.

In view of the above, I have no objection, of course, if you wish to make this view known to whomever you choose...

The other letter read:

... This is in reply to your inquiry on the question of the rotation of the sun and the earth in relation to each other, namely, whether the sun revolves around the earth, or the earth around the sun, and which view is to be accepted, etc.

I presume you have in mind the scientific view, i.e., what science has to say on this question, and I will address myself to this aspect.

It is well known that this was a controversial issue in ancient and medieval science. However, since about half a century ago, with the introduction of the theory of relativity, the latter has been universally accepted as the basis of modern science...

One of the conclusions of the theory of relativity is that when there are two systems, or planets, in motion relative to each other-such as the sun and the earth in our case-either view, namely the sun rotating around the earth, or the earth rotating around the sun, has equal validity. Thus, if there are phenomena that cannot be adequately explained on the basis of one of these views, such difficulties have their counterpart also if the opposite view is accepted.

Secondly, the scientific conclusion that both views have equal validity is the result not of any inadequacy of available scientific data, or of technological development (measuring instruments, etc.), in which case it could be expected that further scientific or technological advancement might clear up the matter eventually and decide in favor of one or the other view. On the contrary, the conclusion of contemporary science is that regardless of any future scientific advancement, the question as to which is our planetary center, the sun or the earth, must forever remain unresolved, since both view(s) will always have the same scientific validity, as stated.

Thirdly, it follows that anyone declaring that a person who chooses to accept one of these systems in preference to the other is a fool, while one who accepts the other is a wise man-such a judgment shows that the person making it is ignorant of the conclusions of modern science, or that he has not advanced beyond the science of Ptolemy and Copernicus...

A further point might be added, though perhaps not pertinent to our discussion. It is that every person, including modern scientists, actually has three options to choose from in this matter: (a) that A revolves around B, (b) that B revolves around A, (c) that A and B revolve around each other. But such a choice cannot be dictated by science; it would be one’s personal choice and belief.

What has been said above is-to repeat-the deduction of the theory of relativity, as it is expounded in various scientific texts, and it can be checked with any scientist who is thoroughly familiar with the said theory. Of course, on the elementary and high-school level, science in general, and the so-called Solar System in particular, is taught from relatively simple textbooks, and the change in the scientific attitude towards the subject under discussion is not emphasized. But, as stated, it would be quite simple to verify it with any scientist who knows this particular field...

« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 01:45:48 AM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Earth at the Center of the Universe
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2007, 02:43:25 AM »
As much as I respect the Rebbe I think that he was wrong and Rabbi R. was correct.  It was proven a long time ago scientifically that the earth revolves around the Sun based on astronomical sightings.  In fact, after going to space several times, having dozens of sattalites in the sky, and having hundreds of thousands of telescopes all proving the earth goes around the sun should be enough proof for you.  If you want to try to prove that the scientists are lying, take out a telescope and do the measurements and chartings yourself and you will see that the arey correct.  The Rebbe did not do a wise move here.  The method of fools is to use brand new scientific concepts that they don't understand to rationalize there own arguments even though they don't know what they are talking about.  I talked with a physicist who understands the theory of relativity and the argument the Rebbe claims is laughable, in fact Einstein himself believed that the earth goes around the sun. 
 
        JDL4EVER disproves the Rebbe's argument

Firstly, the earth and the sun do not rotate around each other like the Rebbe claimed.  This was the basis of his entire argument and it is 100% wrong.  If the Sun did move around the earth and the earth did rotate around the sun then he would have a good argument since according to relativity an observer can't tell which one is rotating around who.  But this postulate is completely wrong, and the Rebbe knew it.  The Sun is in fact stationary and the Earth is the only object that moves so the Rebbe's basic postulate is wrong and relativity does not apply.

Secondly, even if we ignore the obvious error in the Rebbe's argument and assume that it is correct.  Namely, that an observer can't tell by observation which one goes around who if both are moving around each other, it still can be proven mathematically or scientifically which one goes around who and mathematically and astronomically we have proven that the Earth rotates around the Sun.  Relativity only talks about the relative observations of observers in this case.  However, the objective conclusion can be proven scientifically.  For example, relativity will state that if I am moving at the speed of light, light will appear stationary, but it can be proven scientifically that light is not stationary and it only appears stationary to myself. 

Thirdly, by adding another objective observer we can tell who is going around who.  For example, a space craft is an objective observer since it is not located on Earth or on the Sun and from that objective observer there is no more relativity and that observer will distinguish who is rotating around who.  Guess what?  The astronots in space have observed nothing unusual.  So in every singe aspect the Rebbe is wrong.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 03:07:30 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD