Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
jdl4ever:
Lubav has the typical Chassidik viewpoint on things which is very mystical and he believes in magic and other mystical things. It is very difficult to argue logically with people who think this way, since their heads don't work the same way as us. They think the Rabbis in the Talmud could fly, knew everything including all sciences and space travel and all of them could raise the dead. Us Misnagdim are not mystics. We think this is crazy insane stuff (duh). Yes, some Rabbis in the Talmud may have been worthy to raise the dead and the Talmud has an account of one Rabbi who did this, and G-d does miracles rarely, but that is where our common viewpoints end. I think this kind of thinking makes people into irrational fools. It's the kind of thinking that lead to the Holocoast since the Rabbis were too involved in learning Torah and waiting for a miracle then to think rationally about the future and about what the Torah wanted us to do. It's the kind of thinking that makes Jews into fools since people like this reject mathematics and science in favor of nonsense and they reject logical reasoning to prove Torah concepts as done in the Talmud and instead derive stuff mystically which they don't understand to begin with. These people think their leaders were perfect, knew everything and were infallible. Us Misnagdim don't view our Rabbis this way. We think great Rabbis were very great but we know what they were experts on and what their individual limitations were and if someone comes up with a good refutation on something they say then we accept it since they are human and are not perfect. Us Misnagdim also view things with an open mind and use science and mathematics as a spice to improve our understanding of the Torah. Chassidim have a closed mind and don't accept any science at all. The only thing they do is make false arguments made by ignorant people who claim that they think science supports their view that the Sun goes around the Earth. That's called rejecting science my friend. I'll continue to state the Misnagad Orthodox tradition as passed down to me from my grandparents on this forum.
What is this tennis ball thing you refer to, please restate it for me.
Lubab:
If you read between the lines of what JDL4ever is saying this is how it can be summarized.
Me (Lubab) and in the tradition of my Rebbeim believe in what the Torah says first and foremost. This includes everything it says in the Talmud. We do not reject science. We simply will take the Torah's word for it first and do our best to reconcile it with sceince. We also beleive (and the Rebbe has said many times) that if sceince and psychocology and all the other secular wisdoms progress enough and do their reaserch honestly, they will come to all the same conclusions as the Torah.
JDL4 ever and his school of think in the opposite way. They beleive in sceince first and foremost. Then they do their best, if possible, to try and reconcile the Torah with what the scientists say. If the scientists "prove" something againt the Torah, they will reject or downplay what the Torah says and say it's just "magical" or something like that and we don't really need to take it seriously.
This is a Torah forum. JTF is a Torah organization. Therefore, I would hope that the leadership here would first beleive what the Torah says and then try to reconcile it with science, not the other way around. Doing things the opposite way borders on heresy, because your real authority on the issues are the atheist scientists and not the Torah and the Talmud. I question if someone with such an attidute can really be considered a Torah Jew.
With all this said. I think I have proven to you that in this particular debate, either view is compatible with science. You may not like it. It may not be what you were taught in school. But it is true. There is no point at which you can say this is an objective point from which to measure. Since our motion is not perceptible you will never know if that from which you are measuring is not also in motion. This is logical and sceintific. But even if it were not yet understanble according to science I would still belive it because I know the Torah knows better.
And yes, people in the Talmud raised the dead. The dead were raised in the Bible too. One who rejects this or thinks its crazy probably doesn't have too much faith in the stories of the splitting of the sea, the 10 plauges or any of it.
JDL4ever: Do you beleive in the miracles of the Bible and the Talmud?
JDL4ever: The tennis ball question is in this thread-it's the only post (I think) with bold in the text. Check it out.
For the record, we in Lubavitch do not beleive in magic as JDL4ever claims. We beleive in G-d. We beleive G-d can do anything. And we beleive people who are more closely connected with G-d can break the rules of nature as well. If you dont' beleive in that, you don't beleive in the Bible.
Lubab:
Now to answer your question more directly, Muck the Fuslims.
Torah Jews beleive that G-d created the world. This means He created the laws of nature too. He chose them and continues to enforce them at His pleasure.
When he wants to, He can change the laws of nature. G-d set up the world as an arena for the Torah to be fulfilled. So when the laws of nature get in the way of fulfillment of the Torah, G-d will often change the laws of nature for the Righteous people.
Righteous people can ask G-d to change the laws of nature and this is no problem for G-d because he the one who chose them in the first place. So miracles like defying gravity (flying) or making vinegar burn, are really no more unique or miraculous than the usual rules of nature. Both are just G-d doing what He wants to do.
As the Talmud states regarding the story of the vinegar that burned: "The same G-d who says oil should burn, can say that vinegar should burn". Since they needed to light the Shabbat candles, G-d did this for Rabbi Yochanan.
In general, when people are willing to go out of their own nature and do things for G-d in a way of self-sacrifice, G-d reciprocates and will go out of His nature too. This is called "Midah Keneged Midda"-or that G-d treats people measure for measure.
It's not magical. It's just saying the Creator has control His creations. It seems logical to me. What about you? In any case, this is the Torah view.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on June 07, 2007, 12:39:16 AM ---Chassidim have a closed mind and don't accept any science at all. The only thing they do is make false arguments made by ignorant people who claim that they think science supports their view that the Sun goes around the Earth. That's called rejecting science my friend.
What is this tennis ball thing you refer to, please restate it for me.
--- End quote ---
Someone who speaks this way, is someone who did not read my posts carefully. I do read your posts carefully JDL4ever. I hope you would give mine the same respect.
The fact that you are not familiar with the tennis-ball analogy I gave is very telling. It confirms what I've thought for a while: that you are not really reading my posts carefully and considering them. As a result, you do not fully understand the argument the Rebbe and I are making.
There is someone with a closed mind here, but it's not me. I've read all your posts with a very open mind and I have very familiar with your point of view.
P.S. We don't reject science. We hold just like CBP does: If sceince claims to contradict the Torah-it's junk science.
Lubab:
In all honesty, I'm weary of this discussion. I feel I've beaten the dead horse a few times already. ;D
Everyone who has any questions on the Lubavitcher Rebbe's view on this topic which is also my view (and in my opinion the Torah view) can PM me. But as far as this thread goes- everyone can jump all over my words, because I'm done with this one.
Thanks for a very interesting and exciting discussion. I mean that.
P.S. Mitzflefet was right. The discussion is in Pesachim 94 not in Yuma.
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