secular reasons to support JTF

[Rubystars]

Jews are a nation whether they have a country or not. They were a nation before 1948. Someone's national identity or nation is not exactly the same as the country they live in, although it often corresponds. English people tend to be from England. However there are displaced nations such as the Jews were for a long time who don't necessarily have a corresponding country at the moment. Jews now have both a nation and a country to belong to.

[briann]

I understand it but don't believe it theologically.  I support it, but again, with a totally secular reasoning.

It's better to be honest about this than to play games.

With or without the JTF, my views will remain similar.  I think if you draw a venn diagram, we have enough overlap.

Im secular too, but overlapping views is not the point.  We are telling you what this forum considers acceptable... that you HAVE to show respect and reverence towards Israel.  Otherwise, this forum is not for you.

Hindu Zionist is NOT on the forum because his religion has told him to support Israel.  He is on this forum because aside from our mutual disgust of Islam, he understands and that this forum requires this respect for Israel and zionism.  He understands that to the JTF members it is NOT just a piece of land; and should never be discussed as such.

BTW, I try to have similar respect for Hindu nationalism, in spite of the fact that there is no religious precedence for me to do so. Again, its outa respect (even though this is a Jewish site)

[EagleEye]

Well I don't see any evidence of "disrespect towards Israel" in my posts.  Therefore I guess I meet your definition.

Yet I sense a lot of suspicion in you.  Do you have paranoid personality disorder or something?

[muman613]

Well I don't see any evidence of "disrespect towards Israel" in my posts.  Therefore I guess I meet your definition.

Yet I sense a lot of suspicion in you.  Do you have paranoid personality disorder or something?

I dont think that is the issue... But as we have said several times, we consider it essential to understand what Zionism means. It is not simply saying that Jews should have a homeland, as we said it is essential that the land be Israel, only because of the fact that Hashem gave us the land. If you are just with us because we oppose liberalism and Islam then your support is very thin and almost unneeded.

[Lisa]

Well I don't see any evidence of "disrespect towards Israel" in my posts.  Therefore I guess I meet your definition.

Yet I sense a lot of suspicion in you.  Do you have paranoid personality disorder or something?

Briann is a JTF member in good standing.  He does not have any personality disorder.

[EagleEye]

I understand "what it means."  I understand that people have feelings and that feelings motivate them.

[EagleEye]

If you want, you can turn this thread into a poll and have people "vote" to see if I'm close enough to the party line.

If you vote me out, I'll leave.  If you don't, I'll stay.

If you want to.

[briann]

Well I don't see any evidence of "disrespect towards Israel" in my posts.  Therefore I guess I meet your definition.

Yet I sense a lot of suspicion in you.  Do you have paranoid personality disorder or something?

Wow, you really dont know how to pick your fights.     I think your brilliant diagnosis of my mental 'dissorder' speaks volumes about you.

[EagleEye]

You come off as "shocked" that I view Zionism as tribal nationalism and not as something spiritual or "above" other nationalism.  I don't have a religious justification for supporting an American state either.  No right wing American movement has attempted to "kick me out" because I don't believe that America is the land of a chosen Christian people.  If I went to support Irish nationalism, no Irish nationalist movement would browbeat me because I don't view Irish people as a special people.

Yes I respect you, but I respect all legitimate decent nationalists.  Yes I understand your feelings but they stem from your philosophy and my philosophy is much more secular.  Good luck recruiting Gentiles with the attitude that you are better than everyone else.

The reason I'm being so frank here, is that I will continue to push Zionism even if what I'm saying here makes me fall out of favor.  I'd like to stay here, but if you feel otherwise, you won't turn me into an anti-semite.  I'll just use other platforms to convey my message.

[muman613]

You come off as "shocked" that I view Zionism as tribal nationalism and not as something spiritual or "above" other nationalism.  I don't have a religious justification for supporting an American state either.  No right wing American movement has attempted to "kick me out" because I don't believe that America is the land of a chosen Christian people.  If I went to support Irish nationalism, no Irish nationalist movement would browbeat me because I don't view Irish people as a special people.

Yes I respect you, but I respect all legitimate decent nationalists.  Yes I understand your feelings but they stem from your philosophy and my philosophy is much more secular.  Good luck recruiting Gentiles with the attitude that you are better than everyone else.

The reason I'm being so frank here, is that I will continue to push Zionism even if what I'm saying here makes me fall out of favor.  I'd like to stay here, but if you feel otherwise, you won't turn me into an anti-semite.  I'll just use other platforms to convey my message.

But your stated positions are not in line with what we believe Zionism is. Your definition is devoid of any meaning, only what you define it to mean. As I have stated all along, there is no reason why the Jewish people can't be given land in Africa, South America, or on some island in the pacific....

The problem with secular 'zionism' is that it has no basis in fact. The only thing which makes the Jewish people Jewish is that we have Torah. Judaism is not a racial trait, nor is it strictly national... Judaism is a trait which is passed from a Jewish mother to a Jewish child. Your goals, it seems, doesn't even care about this and only wants to establish a place where jews can live {which as I said may as well be a pacific island}.

Zionism comes from the Hebrew word Tzion, or Har Tzion, the mountain of Zion which is the Temple mount. Zionism has for millenium meant the desire for the Jewish people to return to their homeland, the land promised to Abraham and his sons... To remove this from the definition is curious and I don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

You also stated that you think Hitler did things wrong... I for one am still suspicious of your intentions..
.
If you really 'love' the Jewish people you would understand why we desire to live in Israel, not just so we can fight the Muslims and the liberals.

[The One and Only Mo]

Let's all do the secular dance!

[EagleEye]

There is a reason.  Because the Jewish people don't want it anywhere else and because many of them have a religious philosophical view of the world.

I stated that Hitler did things wrong because unintelligent people see nazis behind every tree.  They see secular and authoritarian and automatically assume nazi.  If you'd deal with the paranoia problem, I wouldn't have to say that.  The fact that you persist in accusing me of being sympathetic to Hitler proves to me that you are as paranoid as I alleged.

I'm not a very "Loving" person.  I respect and admire the Jewish people within proportion.  I wish them well.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                       בס"ד

There is a reason.  Because the Jewish people don't want it anywhere else and because many of them have a religious philosophical view of the world.

Many Jews, and most of them in some times, wanted it in Uganda. Does it give us the right to estalish a state there? No need to be hypocritcal, just honest and frank. G-D exists, Torah is truth, Jews will return to Zion wether they like it (Zionist Jews) or not (escaping from Gentiles), eventually.
The fact that people want something isn't enough to give them the right.

I stated that Hitler did things wrong because unintelligent people see nazis behind every tree.  They see secular and authoritarian and automatically assume nazi.  If you'd deal with the paranoia problem, I wouldn't have to say that.  The fact that you persist in accusing me of being sympathetic to Hitler proves to me that you are as paranoid as I alleged.

What did he do right?

[EagleEye]

He was wrong to murder Jews, murder Poles, murder Russians, murder Gypsies, help Croats murder Serbs.

He was wrong to start a world war.  Mussolini was wrong to follow Hitler into war.  Japan was wrong to follow Hitler into war.

Outside of that, he did fix the economy.  He did oppose Bolshevism.  He did oppose extreme liberal capitalism.  Had he not killed people and started a world war, he'd have been a different person.

He used tooth paste.  That doesn't mean I won't.  You are being malicious by trying to imply that I support Hitler, if not downright retarded.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                 בס"ד

He was wrong to murder Jews, murder Poles, murder Russians, murder Gypsies, help Croats murder Serbs.

He was wrong to start a world war.  Mussolini was wrong to follow Hitler into war.  Japan was wrong to follow Hitler into war.

Outside of that, he did fix the economy.  He did oppose Bolshevism.  He did oppose extreme liberal capitalism.  Had he not killed people and started a world war, he'd have been a different person.

He used tooth paste.  That doesn't mean I won't.  You are being malicious by trying to imply that I support Hitler, if not downright retarded.

That's not the full list but ok (he has done a LOT more horrible things than listed above, but I don't have the time to list em all right now).
About the economy, that'd be a matter of time for the economy to collapse again and maybe even worse, so..
About his opposition to Bolshevism, so what and in what ways?
"extreme Liberal Capitalism" - and without Leftie slogans?
If he hadn't start a war, he could have just invited the Soviet citizens to join him in his fight against Bolshevism and just use them to murder, concentrate, rape, rob, humiliate, etc Jews, what he has been doing long before the war ever started.

You know you should calm yourself down you faggy swiney piece of sub-"human" degenerate, do your mother a favor and slice that empty head of urs with a Jappie sword they used to slam you with as a baby.

That was the last time you call a Jew (whatever me or Muman) retarded.

[AsheDina]

He was wrong to murder Jews, murder Poles, murder Russians, murder Gypsies, help Croats murder Serbs.

He was wrong to start a world war.  Mussolini was wrong to follow Hitler into war.  Japan was wrong to follow Hitler into war.

Outside of that, he did fix the economy.  He did oppose Bolshevism.  He did oppose extreme liberal capitalism.  Had he not killed people and started a world war, he'd have been a different person.

He used tooth paste.  That doesn't mean I won't.  You are being malicious by trying to imply that I support Hitler, if not downright retarded.

I dont GET your type people. I dont.  This is a RIGHT WING forum, Hitler was a faggot endorser, he was a NATIONAL SOCIALIST- this is the very thing we are FIGHTING against.
I think that you really don't like Jewish people, this is your problem.

[EagleEye]

I don't like people who endlessly blather away at imaginary enemies.  I've seen non-Jews do the same thing, arguing that Jews are responsible for every evil in the world.  I've condemned them for it.

The JTF has regressed in quality since when I originally joined it.   The people here now are relentless paranoids.

Perhaps you purged away all the good members.

[EagleEye]

You guys have really piled on me but I'm being patient here.  I'm giving you a chance to reconsider and calm down.

[Lisa]

Eagle Eye, JTF is a religious Jewish forum that welcomes non-Jewish members who support Israel being a Jewish state and having her Biblical borders. 

Now being that many members lost their family thanks to Hitler, the last thing you should have done was come here and casually say that Hitler did some things wrong.  The man was a monster, regardless of what may have happened temporarily with the German economy while he was in power. 

So if you're convinced that the forum has deteriorated since the last time you were here.  Then leave and start your own forum.  Or I can ban you. 

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

EagleEye, actually, I don't care if Hitler did some positive things or not (and he didn't). I don't want the German economy to be fixed (not that it was for long time), I don't want neither of that. The fact that he has committed the Holocaust, eliminates the importance of any sign of positive deeds from him. Nothing would EVER be compareable to this inhumane insane crime, this was a MONSTROUS crime, that deletes any sign of positiveness from him.

The fact that you defend him, or try to diminish the major imporant of the Holocaust, my "friend", makes you a Nazi.

Lisa, just ban that piece of drek.

[Lisa]

Done.

[~Hanna~]

He must have been from StørmFrønt...

[Lisa]

When he first started posting here are while back, I had exchanged a few messages with him.  Suffice it to say, he was messed up. 

[muman613]

Good Riddance to bad rubbish!

This guy started to get on my nerves from his first posting. To me, and I believe to most Jewish Kahanists, the issue is not just 'a homeland' for Jews. The issue is to reestablish the Jewish state in Israel, and gather in the Jewish exiles, to Rebuild the Temple, and to usher in the era of Moshiach. Any other 'practicle' reason is secondary to me.

As I stated earlier... If not for Torah the 'Jews' could live in any country in this world... But with the Torah, which establishes who is 'Jewish' and what a Jew is, has established that Jews must try to inhabit the land of Israel. We know where Israel is, we know where the Temple was, and we know that we should be there. The rest of the world, and all Zionists, need to know what we are trying to accomplish.

אור חדש על ציון תאיר

A new light will shine forth from Zion!

[Moshe92]

He must have been from StørmFrønt...

Actually he was according to Lisa.