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Cursing another Jew is forbidden

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muman613:

--- Quote from: JTFenthusiast2 on January 07, 2010, 06:07:03 PM ---Is it wrong to say YimachShemoto a friend who has seriously done us wrong by evilly betraying the friendship?

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yes it it wrong...

The only people we say that to are enemies of the Jewish people.... Like Amalek.... You say 'a friend who has done us wrong by betrayal'.... That doesn't rise to the level of cursing them... Remember that we are to not hold a grudge, and not to be a talebearer amongst our people. We are also supposed to unload the burder of our 'enemies' ox... In this case the word 'enemy' means a person who we know who has done us wrong {again not rising to the level of a enemy of the Jewish people}...

Read the laws of Evil Speech here:

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/chapter1.html


--- Quote ---

1. Definition of Lashon Hara: Negative Comments, Whether True or False

It is forbidden to speak disparagingly of one's "chaveir" (lit. friend--we will discuss who this technically includes later). Even if the information is entirely truthful, it is called Lashon Hara. If the information also contains any fabrication, it is also called motzi shem ra (lit. putting out a bad name). The speaker of Lashon Hara violates the prohibition of "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha (Lev. 19:16)."


2. Biblical Source for the Prohibition Against Lashon Hara

Leviticus 19:16 explicitly prohibits Lashon Hara and Rechilut (talebearing that incites hatred and resentment), yet there are many more commandments that bear on the speaking of Lashon Hara, as discussed in the introduction.


3. Habitual Speakers of Lashon Hara

The above (the seriousness of speaking Lashon Hara) relates to someone who incidentally includes something inappropriate in his speech. But those who make it a habit to talk about others in a derogatory manner ("Did you hear.....", "Do you know she.....", etc.) are labeled ba'alei lashon hara (lit. masters of Lashon Hara, in that such speech is an integral part of themselves), and their transgression is far more severe. They regularly create a chilul Hashem (desecration of the name of G-d; cf. Lev. 22:32) because of their rebellious manner. Though they may view their activities as social tools, such behavior cuts them off from many good things in the world around them.


4. Profound Consequences of Speaking Lashon Hara

Ba'alei Lashon Hara are also cut off from something else: olam habah (the World to Come). The Sages say (Bab. Erchin 15b) that for three transgressions one forfeits his portion in olam habah: murder, adultery, and idol worship, and that lashon hara is equivalent to all three. The Chafetz Chaim adds that when someone accustoms himself to speaking Lashon Hara, he rationalizes it to the extent that he begins to view Lashon Hara as entirely permissible.

The comparison of Lashon Hara to well-known and agreed-upon sins such as murder is surprising. But at the same time, we can imagine why: just as the "Ten Commandments" sins damage and destroy vital physical aspects of the world, Lashon Hara afflicts the emotional and social realms.


5. Being "Coerced" into Speaking Lashon Hara

There is no difference when speaking lashon hara whether one tells a juicy story of his own will or because someone encourages (or pressures) him to do so. Even if the speaker's Rebbe (teacher) or parent--whom the person must honor and fear, and not contradict--requests that he tell about an incident, if the relating of the information would result in Lashon Hara or even Avak Lashon Hara (speech that provokes Lashon Hara; more about that later), he cannot say it.

If you think about it, Lashon Hara isn't any different from any other commandment. If someone encouraged you, or even nagged you, to eat a cheeseburger, you would still be fully responsible for your actions. Certainly social pressure for gossip seems more effective than it is for food, drink and many other areas, but that may be because we are not used to saying "no" to evil speech.


6. Speaking Lashon Hara to Avoid Financial Loss

Even when subject to great financial loss, one is not permitted to speak Lashon Hara. This may mean that he will be viewed as a fool, and denied financial opportunity by the "intelligent" people with whom he associates. As in all Mitzvot Lo Taaseh (Torah prohibitions), we are commanded to forgo all of our income.

(The source for this is in Shema: b'kol l'vavcha, b'kol nafsh'cha, ub'kol m'odecha: "You shall love the L-rd your G-d with all of your heart, all of your soul, and all of your possessions.")

It is generally helpful to try and develop a (personal) rational approach to the laws of Lashon Hara. When someone is confronted with a situation in which he is expected to speak derogatorily about someone, if he can respond with a simple personal philosophy (or sometimes just enough self-confidence to convey adherence to a personal philosophy), he will leave most of those situations with others' respect intact. And in those situations which are not in the "most" category, the best thing to do is remember the benefits that accrue through hardship in observing this mitzvah.


7. Speaking Lashon Hara to Avoid Personal Dishonor

If someone stands to lose personal honor by not speaking Lashon Hara, he must also sustain the loss and remain silent. For example, if one is sitting in a group speaking Lashon Hara, and he has no way to separate from them at the moment, he cannot participate in their lively discussion. This applies even if he will look like a simpleton or social clod. He should try to hold himself back and remember the many sayings of the Sages regarding his situation: "Better to be considered a fool in the eyes of man throughout one's lifetime than as a wicked person in the eyes of G-d for one moment (Eduyot 5:6)," "the reward is according to the effort (Pirkei Avot/Ethics of the Fathers 5:25)," "one hundred times more in hardship than without it (i.e. the reward is one hundred fold; Avot d'Rabbi Natan)," and the Vilna Gaon who writes that "for every second that one remains silent he will merit reward beyond the comprehension of any being, even celestial."


8. Various Methods of Conveying Lashon Hara

Whether spoken, written, or hinted with gestures or any other way (if you looked at the Rashi in Lev. 19:16 you saw that winking was described as a characteristic behavior of holchei rachil - those who go about slandering), any communication of Lashon Hara is prohibited. This also applies if you weren't the writer of a piece disparaging someone. [Rabbi Pliskin elaborates on a footnote in the Hebrew about the communication of Lashon Hara: showing a letter or other writing (e.g. a newspaper) to belittle its writer would also be forbidden. I would anticipate that this would also apply to footage in a film or other media.]


9. Disparaging Yourself Along with Others

Even if you're disparaging yourself alongside the subject, it is prohibited. It doesn't matter if you look even worse than the subject, and it doesn't matter if you mention yourself first. Rabbi Pliskin gives some nice examples:

    Ben and I both shoplifted when we were younger.
    Nobody in our group studies Torah properly.

It is also forbidden to speak Lashon Hara about yourself.
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http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5765/kedoshim.html

http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/5760/kedoshim60.htm

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/bonchek/archives/kedoshim63.htm

--- Quote ---Parashas Kedoshim (5763)

This sedra, as Rashi points out (verse 19:2), contains some of the most basic teachings of Judaism. One is that one must not take advantage of someone who is in a weaker or one-down position from you. An example of that is given in the following verse.

Vayikra 19:14

“You shall not curse a deaf person and before a blind person you shall not place a stumbling block. You shall fear your G-d. I am Hashem.”

RASHI

You shall not curse a deaf person: RASHI: I only know [this prohibition] regarding a deaf person, from where do I know [the prohibition] includes everyone. (i.e it is forbidden to curse anyone).Another verse says (Exodus 22:27) ‘[A prince] among your people you shall not curse.’ (the term ‘among your people’ includes the prohibition against cursing anyone). If so, then why must the Torah specify a deaf person? [The reason is that ] Just as a deaf a person is alive so too anyone who is alive, this excludes the prohibition of cursing a dead person, who is not alive

WHAT IS RASHI SAYING?

Rashi employs the Talmudic drash which derives from this verse the halacha that the prohibition of cursing a person is applicable only when the person who is cursed is living. This means that while cursing a person who is dead is certainly not good behavior, it is not prohibited in this verse. The drash explains why a deaf person is singled out in this verse, if cursing anyone is forbidden. The reason that the Torah mentions a deaf person explicitly is to use it as a representative of a category – the category of living people. Just as a deaf person is alive and it is forbidden to curse him, so too any person who is alive it is forbidden to curse. But it is not forbidden to curse a person who is not alive, who is dead.

UNDERSTANDING THE DRASH

The drash emphasizes the point that the deaf person is alive, but isn’t that strange ? Most people we are prohibited from harming are alive! Why single out the deaf person ?

An Answer: The defining characteristic of a deaf person is that he is deaf. If one where to ask: What do you know about Yaakov? The first answer someone would give is that he is deaf (if in fact he were deaf). But if Yaakov were also dead, then the first answer would be “He is dead.” That is more defining than the fact that he was deaf when he was alive.

A DEEPER QUESTION

But why do I need to be told this? Isn’t it obvious that cursing a deaf person is basically a crime if the person is alive and could suffer from being cursed, even if he, himself, cannot hear the curse ?

The answer is that there is a case where cursing a dead person is a crime. One may not curse one’s parents even if they are dead. So I might have thought that since it is prohibited to curse parents even if they are not alive, so too it would be prohibited to curse anyone even after they died. But the Torah differentiates between the two cases, one is forbidden (parents) and on is not forbidden (any other person).

Can you think why?

Your Answer:

A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING

An Answer: I would say that cursing anyone is forbidden because you do him harm. Therefore, only when the object of your curse can suffer harm, are you forbidden to curse him. That would be only while he is alive. But the reason for not cursing parents is not the harm that could come to them; rather the reason is that one must not be ungrateful to one’s parents who gave him life. That reason exists even after one’s parents have died. He must still be respectful of them and grateful to them for the life they have given him. It is for this reason that one must never curse one’s parents, alive or dead. But this is not the rationale for not cursing another person. The rational exists only when the other person is alive.

Shabbat Shalom
Avigdor Bonchek
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
So what are we doing in Shemoneh Esray (daily prayers) in the blessing about the malshinim ?   Are we not cursing traitors to the Jewish people?

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Rabbi Kahane obviously learned this subject differently than some in this thread.


2:41-2:48

"Yossi Sarid, the names of the wicked will rot"
"Yossi Sarid, Yemach shemo v'zichro"

muman613:

--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 08, 2010, 05:43:47 AM ---So what are we doing in Shemoneh Esray (daily prayers) in the blessing about the malshinim ?   Are we not cursing traitors to the Jewish people?

--- End quote ---

Very interesting that you should ask this... I just received the answer in my email yesterday... Shuel the Small from the Talmud and Pirkie avot tells us the answer:


http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/ch4-24.html
 What We Think about Sinners
Chapter 4, Mishna 24
"Shmuel (Sh-moo-ail) the Small said, 'At your enemy's fall do not rejoice, and when he stumbles let your heart not be joyous, lest the L-rd see and be displeased and turn back His anger from him [to you]' (Proverbs 24:17-18)."

This week's mishna tells us that we must not gloat over the downfall of our enemy, even if such a downfall was eminently deserved. When G-d metes out justice to the wicked, we should find it unsettling. G-d's power has been unleashed in this world; am I so deserving that it will not be directed at me?

The commentator Rabbeinu Yonah adds that there *is* a certain sense of elation we may feel. G-d's honor has been restored. Wickedness does not last forever. G-d ultimately sees to it that His enemies are punished. If He does so in this world, just a small amount of His glory has been revealed to mankind. And for that, we may rejoice.

We should not, however, rejoice over the suffering itself our enemy endures. It may be necessary and it may be 100% *right*, but it is not a source of joy. The Talmud states that when the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, the angels wanted to sing their daily song of praise to G-d, and G-d quieted them: "The creations of My hands are drowning in the sea, and you are singing song?!" (Megillah 10b). One of the most wicked and immoral nations history has produced was at last experiencing its well-deserved fate, yet G-d Himself, so to speak, experienced no pleasure in the process.

Yet at the same time the angels were silenced, Moses and Miriam led the Jewish nation in our most glorious Song of the Sea. Were we so much better? If the angels could not sing, how could we?

The answer is that we sang not as a form of gloating over our enemies, but because we had witnessed G-d's salvation. And it was more than just a salvation. We caught a glimpse -- albeit a fleeting one -- of G-d's Divine guiding Hand. In a moment of inspiration, we were able to grasp the Big Picture -- to discern G-d's slow but directed guiding Hand throughout our history. Everything had come to a head. Jewish history had unfolded before our eyes. We realized that far beyond our puny comprehension G-d had been orchestrating events all along. Hundreds of years of exile and suffering had been purposeful and a part of G-d's master plan. We recognized that G-d had been purifying us in the crucible of Egypt, slowly molding us into His nation, and preparing us for this grand and glorious moment when we would see our Creator face to face.

Singing because people, even wicked people, are drowning we could never do. Singing because G-d had revealed Himself to His nation and to the world -- such a song would reverberate throughout all the generations.

(To touch on this theme slightly better (and then leave it aside for now), singing (or crying, or both) is man's reaction when he is overcome with emotion. At the Sea of Reeds we were able to glimpse that G-d had been guiding us far *beyond* our limited comprehension. This overwhelmed. Our day-to-day study and spiritual growth -- where our growth is basically commensurate with our efforts -- does not spur us to such song. (Maybe to some cheerful humming but not to "song".))

Punishing the wicked is a necessary evil. Yes, wickedness should not exist, and the world is much better off without it. The Mishna states, "The death of the wicked is beneficial to them and beneficial to the world" (Sanhedrin 8:5). But much better would the world have been had the wicked not sinned at all, or had they repented their ways before G-d's justice caught up with them. The world was sweet when the Egyptians were drowned in the sea. But it was bittersweet compared to what might have been had G-d's glory been revealed in man's obeying Him rather than man's chastisement through Him.

Finally, our mishna concludes that when one rejoices over his enemy's downfall, G-d may turn His wrath and direct it towards the rejoicer. Are you really so happy to see G-d wield His rod of chastisement? Is that how you like seeing G-d relate to the world? Now, are *you* really so much more deserving than your enemy? These are *not* the sort of questions we should want raised in Heaven.

When Lot and his family were fleeing the destruction of Sodom, they were instructed by the angels not to look back (see Genesis 19). Lot's wife had the chutzpah to turn and view the destruction being visited on people she was hardly better than. She shared their fate. Punishment is necessary; its message should not be missed by all who witness or hear of it. But enjoying G-d's vengeance as if it were your own? Someone who truly cares for G-d's honor would hardly rejoice when the wickedness of man gave G-d no choice but to blot it out.

The commentators point out something surprising about our mishna. Shmuel the Small did not actually *say* anything. All he did was quote a verse from Proverbs, wisdom authored by King Solomon a thousand years earlier. What did Shmuel teach us that we did not know (or could not have learned) ourselves?

The commentators answer that this was a catch phrase of Shmuel or that he felt it necessary to remind people of its import.

I heard R. Zev Leff, noted scholar and lecturer of Moshav Matisyahu, Israel (www.rabbileff.net/">Rabbileff.net), adds a valuable twist to this. Not everyone can quote a verse in Proverbs. Quoting it implies it is something I live up to and identify with. Unfortunately, we all learn many things which we accept and admire intellectually, but which cannot be said to be a part of us. We should always speak gently, we should pray with fervor, we should see ourselves as constantly standing before G-d. Might even be a tad hypocritical for us to go about pontificating about such things. Shmuel the Small, however, (and as the Jerusalem Talmud (Sotah 9:13) writes, his "smallness" was not a physical shortcoming; his humility led him to behave with "smallness") was one who thoroughly lived the verse in Proverbs, so much so that Solomon's statement was his as well -- one he could state as an expression of his own essence.

R. Leff continued that this is evidenced in another incident which involved Shmuel. The Talmud records that it was Shmuel who, at the behest of the Sages, inserted into the daily Shemoneh Esrai prayer a supplication asking for the destruction of heretics (Brachos 28b). Why was he chosen for the task -- and did he rise to it? Precisely because he was one who didn't really want it. Since Shmuel took no pleasure in the downfall of Israel's enemies -- other than that it was a necessary step in the restoration of G-d's Throne, he could author a prayer asking G-d for just that. When he taught us to beseech that G-d "uproot, smash, cast down, and humble the wanton sinners speedily in our days," he did not have destruction and retribution in mind. His sole interest was that the honor of G-d's sacred Name be restored, and that those who will never recognize G-d through His benevolence will know it through His justice.

So too we, if we truly seek G-d's honor, must never see punishment as victory. We see it as a tragic but necessary step in the revelation of G-d to man. And through this recognition, may we merit to see all aspects of G-d's involvement with the world as multiple facets of a single loving G-d.



Also there is a difference between a unrepentant sinner and one who has wronged us {as the JTFenthusiast2 mentioned, a friend who did us wrong}.... That is why it is wrong to curse this friend...


--- Quote from: JTFenthusiast2 on January 07, 2010, 06:07:03 PM ---Is it wrong to say YimachShemoto a friend who has seriously done us wrong by evilly betraying the friendship?

--- End quote ---

PS: I fully support cursing the enemies of the Jewish people, but the Mitzvah is concerning our neighbors, not our sworn enemy. We make a distinction between those who have 'done us wrong', 'insulted us', 'hurt us', and those who are the enemy of the Jewish people. All of our personal enemies are not enemies of the Jewish people... We must make this distinction...

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
It is clear that Rabbi Kahane learned this issue differently than Rabbi Zev Leff.

It couldn't possibly be more clear.

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