Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: Zelhar on January 18, 2010, 01:29:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ron Of Zion on January 18, 2010, 01:28:01 PM --- בס"ד
--- Quote from: Zelhar on January 18, 2010, 01:26:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ulli on January 17, 2010, 02:31:52 AM ---
--- Quote from: mord on January 16, 2010, 06:13:00 PM ---If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
--- End quote ---
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
--- End quote ---
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.
--- End quote ---
Are you totally nuts
--- End quote ---
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?
--- End quote ---
Wait wait was it meant to be sarcastic?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
I asked my rabbi about this issue in shiur today, and he said the ZAKA group definitely is justified to go over there and save people by breaking Shabbat for several reasons. (I told him ZAKA is an orthodox rescue unit). On the one hand, he said that the major acharonim pasken that nowadays Jews can break Shabbat to save a gentile's life because of a factor of "fear" which overrides the otherwise prohibition to break Shabbat. The fear is that not doing so could make gentiles angry with us, which we don't want gentiles to hate us obviously, and therefore they may take revenge by refusing to treat Jews. So in effect you are getting Jews killed by refraining to help gentiles, even though the sanctity of Shabbat is paramount and almost unnegotiable. That would give you a permission to break Shabbat.
There is also plenty of room for logical deductions such as the fact that since every nation or at least many nations are sending delegations over there to help, if Israel is the only one who does not, it can cause the civilized nations of the world to put pressure on us or help our enemies the Arabs, or it could motivate the Arabs to hate us more and spread their Jew-hating propaganda to kill us. So this also can be used reasonably in this case in his opinion, in addition to the fact that later authorities rule it's permissible anyway.
[Also, there is a shita (opinion), and which rishon it was now escapes me so I don't want to say who until I get the name straight, but there is an opinion that exists that all of those gemaras are speaking about *actual idol worshippers, not just all non-Jews. That to break Shabbat to save a life of a non-Jew would be permitted if the non-Jew is not an idol worshipper. The difficulty in applying that here is that it seems Haitians are into voodoo and other strange things. So that may not be applicable.]
But aside from all of this there is one basic fact that makes this very clear that ZAKA is justified in what they are doing even from the earliest authorities. The gemara paskens according to Shmuel, that even in a case where the city is a majority of gentiles, even if there is a single Jew that lives there, you have to break Shabbat to save the guy (whose identity you don't know). Since there were a handful of Israelis (Jews) in Haiti at the time (even one suffices), then they are permitted to break Shabbat there and save people.
I'm not sure if all the Israelis who were there have been accounted for yet, but even regardless of this, just the fact that there was a single Jew in that place allows you to break Shabbat to save the people (all of them) from dying.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
I request that this thread be moved to the Judaism section. I would like to explain my Talmud rabbi's answer in depth, although I'm less comfortable doing so in the main forum since it's a detailed discussion of the Oral law, and I feel this is more appropriate in the Judaism section. It may be that there is no problem anyway, but since I am not expert about what I can or can't explain in a public forum, I'd rather be more cautious and at least have this in the Judaism section.
Thank you for moving. I have posted a summary of my rabbi's response above.
Harzel:
--- Quote from: Ron Of Zion on January 18, 2010, 01:32:09 PM --- בס"ד
--- Quote from: Zelhar on January 18, 2010, 01:29:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ron Of Zion on January 18, 2010, 01:28:01 PM --- בס"ד
--- Quote from: Zelhar on January 18, 2010, 01:26:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ulli on January 17, 2010, 02:31:52 AM ---
--- Quote from: mord on January 16, 2010, 06:13:00 PM ---If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
--- End quote ---
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
--- End quote ---
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.
--- End quote ---
Are you totally nuts
--- End quote ---
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?
--- End quote ---
Wait wait was it meant to be sarcastic?
--- End quote ---
No.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
bli neder, I will also pose the question to Rabbi David Bar Hayim, since that was requested.
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