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Judaism: Forbidden art?

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muman613:

--- Quote from: Masha on February 05, 2010, 02:44:29 PM ---So there are no sculptures in art museums in Israel?

--- End quote ---

That is an entirely different question.... Technically speaking, if Israel were to be a Torah observant nation, there should be no complete statues  in Israel...

muman613:
From http://www.modia.org/infos/etudes/attitude-of-judaism-toward-art.htm


Halakha (Jewish religious law) concerning art


Religious law is called “halakha.” The fact that the word derives from the root halakh (to go) indicates that religious laws do not aim to enclose or dominate people, like government laws, but represent, instead, a process, a going towards. It is in this perspective that we should understand what Jewish law says about art, rather than focusing right away on the prohibition against representation, for this prohibition is simply a consequence of the desire to safeguard the process of life. If a painting takes the place of reality and of life, then it is prohibited. But if the artist Bezalel is capable of creating a representation which is the vehicle of life, renders this process visible and creates a relationship with the essence of life, then we need the artist and his role is essential. Furthermore, it is he who will give us a constantly visible reflection of a world that is beautiful and creative: he does this through his interiority and exteriority, and through his relations with the world, for he circulates his art and sells it.

In Hebrew, the word for face is in the plural, “ panim,” meaning faces, because we have both an inner and an outer face and they must both be present in us and in the person who “faces” us. The face represents the part of our bodies that most reflects failure or success. It is for this reason that the representation of the human person was specifically forbidden. But today, all the Great Rabbis allow themselves to be photographed. This is permitted on condition their representations are not viewed as idols, as objects substituting for life. The Psalms and the Prophets ridicule idols who do not talk, and do not feel. In contrast, when everything is in order, then art is present and necessary. What demonstrates this best are the two cherubs (kerumvim) first described in Genesis 3, 24, then in Exodus 25, 18-20 and 37, 7-9. It is said that the place from which God speaks is “between the two cherubs” made by the artist. Refer also to the following passages: I Samuel 4, 4. II Samuel 6, 2. II Kings 19, 15. Isaiah 37, 16 and Psalms 80, 2 and 99, 1.

The Sages, or possekei din, who define the rules that govern representation in a particular period or for a particular community, refer first and foremost to these basic principles. The way they are applied is secondary. The same principles pertain to the representation of faces and bodies, as well as to people’s names, for it is expressly forbidden to use a person’s name with disrespect or scorn.

Those who are very strict and doubt whether the representation of beauty is permissible, should refer to Tractate Shabbat of the Babylonian Talmud, page 133b, which states: “Baraitha: Exodus 15, 2 says in the Song of Moshe and of the people: ze Eli ne anvehu – Here is my God and I shall embellish him. So, adorn yourself before him with good deeds, make in His honor a beautiful hut for the festival of Succot, choose a beautiful palm, a beautiful shofar, beautiful fringes for the tsisiot at the corners of your garments, a beautiful book and write the Torah in His name with beautiful ink, a handsome pen, a talented scribe, and wrap it in precious silk. Abba Shaul tells us that this also signifies that we must strive to resemble Him: particularly, by being compassionate and full of mercy, as He is Himself.” Judaism, thus, accords a place of eminence to works of art, to human beings as works of art, to interiority and exteriority as works of art. Such works of art have nothing to with objects that are “fashionable” or accorded great value on the art market. When art adheres to the principles of Judaism, there is no prohibition: on the contrary, there is even an obligation to create it. The image of the dirty, ugly religious Jew is not a Jewish image.

In order to avoid the negative slide that leads to idol worship, the Torah tells us in Exodus 20, 4: “Thou shalt not make thee any craven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth.” This is a prohibition against the representation of God, or the making of an object that claims to represent God. This prohibition is specifically set out in the summary of the Torah, in Devarim (Deuteronomy) 5, 8-9. Chapter 4, 16-18 of the same book prohibits the representation of human beings, male and female, for use as idols.

On this basis, and because of the different needs of Jewish communities throughout history, the ordinances issued by the Sages against representation varied (as in Islam). In modern times, as idol worship became less prevalent, the rabbis permitted the representation of a person’s face, even their own, for this did not represent idolatry. The specific authorization was given by Rav Solomon Hirsch (1762-1842) who was painted, engraved on medals, and even sculpted for his community by Drummond. We are now at a point where even the strictest streams of Judaism produce photographs and films about their rabbis and other figures (caution against idolatry remains necessary, for there is always a risk that the writings or image of an rabbi can unconsciously be confused with the Creator, but the problem, then, is not limited to the image but to the whole relationship.) Conversely, there remains the prohibition against transforming the image of a person into an object of scorn and, therefore, no longer in the image of God: this includes the widespread, immodest exploitation of the female body and its use as a cheap source of excitement and profit for the consumer industry.

Jewish art or art created by Jews preserves the age-old values of Jewish tradition which represents life, creation, interiority, true relationships and respect for human beings. Whether the subject of the art is religious or profane is irrelevant; what is important is the adherence to these principles.

Biblical figures and themes in works of art

Numerous works of art have been based on Biblical themes and figures, or bear Biblical titles; Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, the sacrifice of Isaac, Joseph and his brothers, all the episodes relating to the life of the Children of Israel in Egypt, in the desert, in Sinai, David and Goliath, Solomon, the rites of the Temple, and the destruction of the Temple.

Then there are the many images of Jewish community life (the synagogue, places of study); the major events in Jewish life from birth, bar mitzvah, marriage, the Shabbat table, and death; the rabbis and important public figures; the artistic characteristics of each community; and the milestones in Jewish history – exiles, pogroms, the Holocaust, the return to Israel and the discovery by artists of the landscapes of the land of Israel.

There are major Jewish such as Picart, Gottlieb, Chagall and Modigliani. And great non-Jewish painters such as Rembrandt, Delacroix, who left us incomparable works. Also imprinted in our minds are the images of the hundreds of synagogues which rose following the destruction of the Temple and which survive to this day, contradicting the lie perpetrated by Christians that everything Jewish was destroyed in the year 70, to give way to Christianity; the images of the stones of Ashkelon, the mosaics of Bet Alfa and Hamam Lif, the lintel of the house of study at Dabbura, Capernaum, the menorah of Caesarea, of Hammath and Ein Gedi, the frescoes of Pekiin, the mosaics of Maon, Jericho, Naarah, Gaza, Beth Shean and Gerasa, and the synagogues of Gush Halav.

And in dispersion and exile, the wonderful, renowned synagogues of Toledo, Cordoba, Prague, Amsterdam, Venice, Florence, Ostia, and the tombs of Esther, Mordechai and the prophet Daniel in Iran.

muman613:
From RAMBAMS Mishne Torah on Avodah Zara {Idol Worship}

Chapter One
Halacha 1

During the times of Enosh, mankind made a great mistake, and the wise men of that generation gave thoughtless counsel. Enosh himself was one of those who erred.

Their mistake was as follows: They said God created stars and spheres with which to control the world. He placed them on high and treated them with honor, making them servants who minister before Him. Accordingly, it is fitting to praise and glorify them and to treat them with honor. [They perceived] this to be the will of God, blessed be He, that they magnify and honor those whom He magnified and honored, just as a king desires that the servants who stand before him be honored. Indeed, doing so is an expression of honor to the king.

After conceiving of this notion, they began to construct temples to the stars and offer sacrifices to them. They would praise and glorify them with words, and prostrate themselves before them, because by doing so, they would - according to their false conception - be fulfilling the will of God.

This was the essence of the worship of false gods, and this was the rationale of those who worshiped them. They would not say that there is no other god except for this star.

This message was conveyed by Jeremiah, who declared (10:7-8): "Who will not fear You, King of the nations, for to You it is fitting. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. They have one foolish and senseless [notion. They conceive of their] empty teachings as wood;" i.e., all know that You alone are God. Their foolish error consists of conceiving of this emptiness as Your will.

Halacha 2

After many years passed, there arose people - false prophets - who told [their nations] that God had commanded them to say: Serve this star - or all the stars - sacrifice to it, offer libations to it, build a temple for it and make an image of it so that all people - including the women, the children, and the common people - could bow to it.

He would inform them of a form that he had conceived, and tell them that this is the image of the particular star, claiming that this was revealed to him in a prophetic vision. In this manner, the people began to make images in temples, under trees, and on the tops of mountains and hills.

People would gather together and bow down to them and the [false prophets] would say: This image is the source of benefit or harm. It is appropriate to serve it and fear it. Their priests would tell them: This service will enable you to multiply and be successful. Do this and this, or do not do this or this.

Subsequently, other deceivers arose and declared that a specific star, sphere, or angel had spoken to them and commanded them: Serve me in this manner. He would then relate a mode of service [telling them:] Do this, do not do this.

Thus, these practices spread throughout the world. People would serve images with strange practices - one more distorted than the other - offer sacrifices to them, and bow down to them. As the years passed, [God's] glorious and awesome name was forgotten by the entire population. [It was no longer part of] their speech or thought, and they no longer knew Him. Thus, all the common people, the women, and the children would know only the image of wood or stone and the temples of stone to which they were trained from their childhood to bow down and serve, and in whose name they swore.

The wise men among them would think that there is no God other than the stars and spheres for whose sake, and in resemblance of which, they had made these images. The Eternal Rock was not recognized or known by anyone in the world, with the exception of a [few] individuals: for example, Chanoch, Metushelach, Noach, Shem, and Ever. The world continued in this fashion until the pillar of the world - the Patriarch Abraham - was born.

Halacha 3

After this mighty man was weaned, he began to explore and think. Though he was a child, he began to think [incessantly] throughout the day and night, wondering: How is it possible for the sphere to continue to revolve without having anyone controlling it? Who is causing it to revolve? Surely, it does not cause itself to revolve.

He had no teacher, nor was there anyone to inform him. Rather, he was mired in Ur Kasdim among the foolish idolaters. His father, mother, and all the people [around him] were idol worshipers, and he would worship with them. [However,] his heart was exploring and [gaining] understanding.

Ultimately, he appreciated the way of truth and understood the path of righteousness through his accurate comprehension. He realized that there was one God who controlled the sphere, that He created everything, and that there is no other God among all the other entities. He knew that the entire world was making a mistake. What caused them to err was their service of the stars and images, which made them lose awareness of the truth.

Abraham was forty years old when he became aware of his Creator. When he recognized and knew Him, he began to formulate replies to the inhabitants of Ur Kasdim and debate with them, telling them that they were not following a proper path.

He broke their idols and began to teach the people that it is fitting to serve only the God of the world. To Him [alone] is it fitting to bow down, sacrifice, and offer libations, so that the people of future [generations] would recognize Him. [Conversely,] it is fitting to destroy and break all the images, lest all the people err concerning them, like those people who thought that there are no other gods besides these [images].

When he overcame them through the strength of his arguments, the king desired to kill him. He was [saved through] a miracle and left for Charan. [There,] he began to call in a loud voice to all people and inform them that there is one God in the entire world and it is proper to serve Him. He would go out and call to the people, gathering them in city after city and country after country, until he came to the land of Canaan - proclaiming [God's existence the entire time] - as [Genesis 21:33] states: "And He called there in the name of the Lord, the eternal God."

When the people would gather around him and ask him about his statements, he would explain [them] to each one of them according to their understanding, until they turned to the path of truth. Ultimately, thousands and myriads gathered around him. These are the men of the house of Abraham.

He planted in their hearts this great fundamental principle, composed texts about it, and taught it to Isaac, his son. Isaac also taught others and turned [their hearts to God]. He also taught Jacob and appointed him as a teacher.

[Jacob] taught others and turned [the hearts] of all those who gathered around him [to God]. He also taught all of his children. He selected Levi and appointed him as the leader. He established him [as the head of] the academy to teach them the way of God and observe the mitzvot of Abraham.

[Jacob] commanded his sons that the leadership should not depart from the descendants of Levi, so that the teachings would not be forgotten. This concept proceeded and gathered strength among the descendants of Jacob and those who collected around them, until there became a nation within the world which knew God.

When the Jews extended their stay in Egypt, however, they learned from the [Egyptians'] deeds and began worshiping the stars as they did, with the exception of the tribe of Levi, who clung to the mitzvot of the patriarchs - the tribe of Levi never served false gods.

Within a short time, the fundamental principle that Abraham had planted would have been uprooted, and the descendants of Jacob would have returned to the errors of the world and their crookedness. Because of God's love for us, and to uphold the oath He made to Abraham, our patriarch, He brought forth Moses, our teacher, the master of all prophets, and sent him [to redeem the Jews]. After Moses, our teacher, prophesied, and God chose Israel as His inheritance, He crowned them with mitzvot and informed them of the path to serve Him, [teaching them] the judgement prescribed for idol worshiper and all those who stray after it.

Spiraling Leopard:

--- Quote from: muman613 on February 05, 2010, 02:14:19 PM ---PS: I have known KWRBT for over 2 years now and he doesn't make 'idiotic personal comments' without a reason. It seemed from your first response to him that you were denigrating what his Rabbi said. I have heard and read some of what his Rabbi says and I must say that he seems like a very wise teacher.

--- End quote ---

No it did not seem that I was denigrating what his rabbi said so yes he did make idiotic personal comments without a reason.

Not that I care though. I have strong convictions, unlike other people like muslims and others.

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 05, 2010, 07:26:17 AM ---

I am astounded at how pathetically insecure you sound.   I am not "all knowing."   The JEWISH LAW, operates on 'halacha' which is only arrived at through Talmudic study - a vast corpus of Oral tradition which expounds upon the Torah and is the only binding explanation of law with a tradition of interpretation stemming all the way back to Moshe and the first Jews that were.  I did not even say that it was my own ideas I was giving over.  My rabbi, who has studied the Talmud in depth and all the of the sources, has arrived at the halacha on this issue and gave a psak din (a ruling) for White Israelite who asked a halachic question.    Jewish law does not operate on "making stuff up" - which is what you did here.   You make a mockery of Judaism with your ignorant comments, and that has no place here.   

Your invented speculation not only says nothing about what the Jewish law is or is not, and has no relevance since you do not claim to put any textual backing behind it or to have any source in Jewish sources, but it also was Wrong... Incorrect... According to Jewish law.      You may not understand how Judaism operates, and I don't expect you to, but White Israelite's question was for a trained, qualified rabbi who knows the sources in Jewish law - not some ignorant speculating know-nothing to make something up.   White Israelite also could have made up anything he wanted too.   But that was not his intention.  His intention was to find out about Jewish law.

BTW are you even Jewish?   If not, you have absolutely no business "teaching" what you think is 'bible' to Jews.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: Bio-Electric Apprentice on February 05, 2010, 09:15:20 AM ---
Insecure? I wonder how you are going to reason that one.

I did not say you were 'all knowing', you speak like you previous post was a finite answer. 
--- End quote ---

It WAS a finite answer.  It was a psak din from a qualified rabbi.   You are in no place to disagree.   1.  You cannot even disagree within the sources and take issue with the psak on any reasonable grounds from within Torah she baal Peh because you don't know any, and 2.   You didn't even try.   You gave some hypothetical speculation as your 'opinion' as if that matters worth 2 cents.   It really doesn't.   Like I said, White Israelite was not asking for opinions - everyone has one, and he can have his own, too.   He was asking what Jewish law says about the issue.   Only a qualified expert can answer that question.   You didn't even pretend that you had sources behind you.   


--- Quote ---Jewish law? From what I understand different rabbi's will give different interpretation's so questioning yóúr rabbi's answer is only logical. 
--- End quote ---

That's the end of this stupidity.   This thread belongs in the Judaism section.   Unfortunately you have no idea what you are talking about and you make a mockery not only of Judaism here, but moreso of yourself.   Saying some wild speculation out of left field based on NOTHING does not constitute arguing over a psak of a rabbi.  Your opinion about Torah is worth absolutely nothing, in fact less than zero if that was possible.

Furthermore, a Jew is not permitted to go shopping for psak.   So once the halachic shaila is asked to a given rabbi, unless there is some pressing reason, the person cannot then go and try to find something more lenient or more strict, he should go with the psak he was given.    I was doing White Israelite a favor so that he can be in direct contact with an Orthodox rav who is highly trained and well respected, very understanding of people, and whom I personally trust, so that he can get a psak din directly and know exactly what the boundaries are.    Because you THINK Jewish law should be different based on your supposed "logic"  has absolutely no relevance and no value.    Period.



--- Quote ---I am not making stuff up; I reason my theory and if you want to deny the theory I gave based on your own reasoning, then do so.
--- End quote ---

By definition, if your "theory" (your own words, yes it was completely "theory" - appropriate word choice) is not based within the sources of Jewish law, You HAVE made something up.  Wholecloth.   



--- Quote ---I don't mock Judaism and if you call somebody's comments ignorant you should at least back it up with reasoning and a bunch of 'how's' and 'why's'. 
--- End quote ---

The first one to MOCK anyone here was you.    You made a snide remark that I thought I was "all knowing."    I didn't just reject your baseless speculative idea for no reason, I rejected it because it completely disagrees with what Jewish law says.   It doesn't get more fundamental than that.   Your only response to the fact that it completely contradicts what Judaism says, was to make a snide remark about me or what I think about myself.   

Judaism is based on Jewish law.   Not, "I invented my own law and came up with a theory."   Jewish law has tradition and authority behind it, stemming back to the Great Sanhedrin, and all the way back to Moshe's time.    You are in no place to challenge it.    Especially when you don't even know the sources and are not even pretending to argue WITHIN the sources, but instead baselessly provide your own subjective meaningless "opinion" which like I said, anyone can shoot from the hip and make up anything - which is why it is meaningless, just as much as if I did the same.


--- Quote ---This is a place for righteous people. Apparently, the way you theorize as displayed by your own words, is that you will deny Truth, if it is nót directly backed by Jewish scriptures. That makes you a dogmatic sheep that can't think for himself.
--- End quote ---

In what way does this type of garbage belong on our forum?   I haven't read the rest of this thread but this person should have been rebuked heavily for this atrocity.



--- Quote ---I am 'teaching' here? I am not teaching anything. I give my explanation and that bothers you. Perhaps you need some counseling.

--- End quote ---

You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question.   What don't you understand?   I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous.  So cut the games and stop playing around.  You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong.   What you have done in this thread is ridiculous.  Completely over the line.   There is no place for this here.

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